1 Month/Tracks open etsweptster

[MountainMoparRobin]

When the tracks open and as I'm able to make runs I'll have these idea's to try

[etsweptster]

If you change fuel line and fuel pump, and that picks you up et, you were obviously running out of fuel before...for whatever reason. Ultimately all of the fuel for the engine has to get into the carb through the two needle and seat assemblies in the carb. Stock Holley's are .097 inch holes in the needles, and their first performance one is .110. I solved most of my lack of fuel problems by switching to .130s several years ago. I had to switch to .150s to get enough fuel for the E85. At about half track it would start to nose over with the .130s on the E85...I switched to the .150s, and it fixed that problem. Now, obviously you can push more fuel through the smaller needle and seat by adding more volume and pressure, but I choose to do it with bigger needle and seats instead. If I were running out of fuel, it wouldn't have been puffing black smoke by the end of the nitrous passes as the bottle pressure dropped.

My dart runs 10.80s at 127mph through a 3/8 fuel line as well. Fuel is one place where it's better to be safe than sorry, so I understand running it slightly overkilled. What cracks me up though is the guys running a 5/8 fuel line to the regulator with 2 half inch lines running to each side of the carb in a 12 second car. Then they have to run this big bad pump to keep it from stalling the fuel in the 5/8 hose or they lose pressure half way down the track. When I was younger I put a half inch fuel line on my 440 cuda, and the mechanical pump literally could not suck the fuel from the tank under acceleration. I would get about 10 feet after I shifted into second gear before the engine would shut off like you turned the key off. That was a 14 second car, and the fuel line was the only change I made at the time. I had to add an electric pump back by the tank to make it driveable.

I can see a 440 needing more gear than my 408 since I have more stroke. My motor makes over 542 foot pounds of torque from 4000rpm through to about 5200rpm. Having a converter that stalls right at 4100rpm, and the low gear set in the tranny is probably why mine doesn't like the gear. I'll bet that ole 528 has that beat by a wee bit!

As far as the drag radials on the street go, I am more interested in my track et than my street et. I have the MT drag radials on both of my turbo cars, and they drive fine in the rain. I have followed my buddies home from the track in their camaros and 442s running the MTs at 75mph in the rain. I have another friend that used to run the BFG drag radials, and any rain at all kept him off the street completely. Also, the 3.91 gears made it infinetly more fun on the street...with the 4.30s first gear was completely useless...instant rev limiter at any speed in first gear if I nailed it!

[garrett]

Etsweptster please tell me more on the e85 i can't pay for 112 octane anymore would love to make the switch !

[etsweptster]

It's a pretty simple swap. You have to be able to add anywhere between 25 and 30 percent more fuel to the engine, so you need to be able to jet your carb. Edelbrock carbs don't have higher flow needle and seats available, so they will be limited to a fairly stock application. For the Holley's, quickfuel recommends the .130 needle and seats, and you will need to jet up at least 10 steps on each side of the carb. The best way to go is to get the quickfuel metering blocks (about $150 on Ebay), because they already have the fuel curve built into them to help achieve better driveability...better idle and around town driveability, plus they will flow up to the 110 jets, where the stock Holley blocks only have a booster passage the size of a 93 jet. (On my 1000cfm Holley I am jetted 88 w/power valve in front, and 99 no power valve in rear...When I was lower compression it was 98/110) If you have a proform main body, or the Holley ultra series center section, you can achieve this by changing the low and high speed air bleeds. (I have both-the adjustable main body and the metering blocks)

Other than that, there are no other changes required. Anything that was compatible with gas is compatible with E85. Don't let people try to tell you otherwise. You will here horror stories, but they are always secondhand, or they are about methanol. Since Methanol and Ethanol rhyme alot of people make the false assumption that they are the same, but methanol is much more corrosive, and will ruin rubber lines, fuel cell foam, diaphragms in the carb, etc. E85 still has 15 percent gasoline in it, and it requires no other fuel system mods...other than the before mentioned ability to deliver 30 percent more of it. You may need a bigger fuel pump and/or lines if you are close to maxing these out with race gas.

If you have specific questions, feel free to ask. I'm sure I didn't cover everything, but hopefully this gives you a good idea. Remember that it's only rated at 104 octane, but it has anti-detonation characteristics of about 130 octane gas. There are guys running 15:1 compression at sealevel with it! A local mustang is running 1225hp at the rear wheels on E85 too!

[quickd100]

Ya I know a bit about E-85 as well ran it a couple years in the truck, worked REAL well too. If you're interested in a low buck conversion to it you might be interested in this piece I wrote for Mopar Action a few years ago. Here's the link
http://www.moparts.org/moparts/picture/ ... /Vraa.html
I'd be running it in my Hemi right now if I'd known about it when I had JE make me a set of pistons. As it is my compression is only 10.6-1. Dave

[etsweptster]

Yes, Dave is the E85 guru. I learned a lot of what I know about it from him. When I made the switch to E85 I was only around 10:1 compression, which is very low for our altitude. I could run 87 octane with no problems. The E85 still picked me up from 12.20 to 12.00 with that setup...once I learned to shift 200 rpm earlier! It definitely makes more torque...my 60 foot times dropped a few hundredths. Once I strarted shifting at 6200rpm instead of 6400 (which is where it ran the best on pump gas) it picked up to 110mph from 108 on gas.

My dart, and both of my turbo cars run on E85 as well. 25 pounds of boost, no problem! Love the stuff!

BTW Dave, make sure you post some pics of your rear suspension when you have it installed. I'm very interested in seeing how it works! I think if I ever went to sealevel I would never hook up...the extra 150 horsepower might break some other stuff too! lol

I think I have told this story before, but I think it shows why my truck hooks up as well as it does...: I watched a full on gutted out, lexaned, big block 68 Charger weigh his car at the scales at Bandimere one day. He rolled on with his front tires only, and then rolled all the way on. I did the same, and the differences amazed me: BB Charger was 2150 on the front axle, and 3300 overall. My truck was 1950 on the front, and 3605 overall! Now, tell me who has the better weight balance? lol

[garrett]

That is sweet i have a holley 850 on there now a 140 gph 1/2 line from tank to pump to reg then 3/8 from reg to carb right around 13:1 comp i want to crusie this year on the street and 112 octane is 65 bucks for 5 gal now so its time for the e85 you guys are the best thanks
garrett

[etsweptster]

Garrett, that sounds like fun! I forgot to mention that the gas mileage goes to crap with the E85 with the lower compression motor. Dave can tell you all about that! With 13:1, you should get decent mileage. Mine dropped from around 14mpg to 10mpg when I switched, and now that my compression is up around 12.5:1 it's back up to about 12mpg. If I had unlimited resources I would have had a set of custom pistons made to get it up closer to 14:1, but the flat KB forged were off the shelf for under $400. The cool thing is that I could go to sealevel without problems with my current compression ratio. If I cruise at 65 instead of 75 it goes up to about 14mpg again.

Also, you may need to jet up more than 10 steps since you are going from race gas to the E85. Just switching to pump gas would require a significant jet increase alone, and then more for the E85. The crazy thing is, it will run fine, with no detonation even when it is way lean. I started out 10 jets up on each side, and ended up 20 on each side...of course I am slightly overcarbed, so the abilitly to pull fuel is decreased. Every pass I made I was jetting up 4 steps, and it was picking up about a tenth and one mph with each change. It drove fine all the way to the track, but was running a touch warm. On the way home it ran better, and much cooler...cooler than it did on gas (another added benefit of the ethanol)

[garrett]

Very nice i have found a local guy with a kit to swap my carb to run acohol meter blocks and other stuff for 50 bucks that sound good to you guys im so ready to burn rubber this year lol

[etsweptster]

I don't think the alcohol metering blocks are a very good idea. I doubt you will be able to get a small enough jet for the E85...also, they are metered for 100% alcohol, not 85%. I only know of one guy who tried that, and he had to switch back to his gas metering blocks to work. Several of my friends are running the stock Holley gas metering blocks with just more jetting, so it can be done.

[moparman336]

how is it that you guys are allowed to run a gas tank in the cab of your truck. The tech guys at my track told me i had to take my factory tank out of my truck. they said if its a bone stock vehicle it can stay but as soon as you change one thing it has to go.
and in my car i put my fuel cell in the trunk and they made me fab a barrier wall behind my rear seat to isolate the cell from the drivers compartment.
What sanctioning body are you guys under, im under NHRA division 6.
i cant wait to take my toys out of hybernation

[etsweptster]

When the gas tank is moved into the passenger compartment (such as the trunk area) it has to be separated from the driver by a firewall. (Unless it's a metal gas tank..ie aluminum, and vented outside of the trunk)The key word there is "moved". I have never found the rule in the NHRA rulebook that says I can't leave my gas tank it's stock location. It is, after all, a steel gas tank, and it is vented outside of the cab. It's kind of like the battery hold down rule...if you relocate the battery it has to be mounted with 3/8 bolts to the frame, but if it's in the stock location it can be held down by 1/4 j-hooks to the inner fender well. I run in Division 5, and pass tech at both Pueblo and Bandimere...not to say that means it's legal, just that they haven't made me move it. I do know that once I go under 11.50 I would have to move it in order to put the rollbar in it. Another reason to not run that fast!

Also, what do they consider stock, and modified from stock? Do they mean replacing your air filter with a K&N, or are they just going by your et? Sounds to me like your tech guy is making his own interpretation of the rule book. Why would a "stock" vehicle be any safer than one that has had some changes? Is the fuel less flammable? If you blew a tire, and rolled over in stock trim would it be safer than if it had be modded? Most of the NHRA rules do make sense...at least to some degree. I know several guys who chose to run an aluminum fuel cell, and enclose their batteries in an aluminum box just so they wouldn't have to install firewalls. On more than one occasion I have had to get my rulebook out to show a tech guy that he was wrong for trying to fail me for something that he thought wasn't legal.

Another thing to remember is that any track can make stricter rules, but they can't be more leanient to maintain their NHRA membership. At our track, if you have a crack anywhere in the windshield over 1/2inch long you can't race...period...no exceptions! In Billings(Acton) I saw that on a truck you either have to run with the tailgate up and latched, or it has to be completely removed, or welded open. There is definitely no NHRA rule that stipulates that. My truck runs a tenth quicker, and one full mph faster with the tailgate up anyway.

[moparman336]

ya i guess the tech guys at my track are super tight. on my moms car i figured i should get rid of the bungee strap holding down the battery in the stock location before taking to the track for the first time. so i cut up a piece of 1/4 inch plate and bought some 1/4 inch j-hooks and they wouldnt accept it even though it was better than stock. so i had to fab up some 3/8 rod with bolts. and they are really strick on wheel stud length with aftermarket rims even though my truck at the time was running in the 16 second bracket
but its all worth it, even though it turns me broke

[etsweptster]

Yah, some of those tech guys have a God complex. Reminds me of the security guards that don't make it as cops! It's always best to stay on their good sides! By the way, neither tech in Pueblo or Bandimere ever found my nitrous system when I used to run that on my truck! haha

[garrett]

so if i just get the master jet kit then jet away i will be good

[etsweptster]

You could try that first, but if you run into driveability issues, or you need to jet higher than 93s, you could get the E85 metering blocks. Also, if you are running the screw in jet extensions in the secondaries you will need to drill them out if you run larger than 98 jets...if I remember right...might be more like 93s too. You can tell by looking through the jet and the extension. I drilled mine out to the size of the 110 jets, and I made a pass without the jets in it...just the had the extensions in it...and it ran the same! That was when I was jetted 99/110.

[garrett]

OK will do is e85 and nitrous compatible i have a 100hp kit might put it on this year lol

[etsweptster]

They are compatible, but you can't use the recommended jetting that come with the kits. You will need to add about 30% more gas, or 30% less nitrous. I don't know if anybody has that has experimented with it has ever posted any exact jet sizes or not. I plan on messing with it a little eventually, but until then I can't be very specific.

I can tell you that if you try to use it with the nitrous kit's recommended jetting...you will go way lean and grenade your motor! I plan on starting out with about a 40 horse shot, and I will run the jet that I had for my 60 horse shot on the gas side with the 40 horse jet on the nitrous side. My jetting is different from most since I run it off of my mechanical pump which is at a much higher pressure than the recommended 5psi that the NOS kits are jetted for.(I run a smaller gas jet to compensate for this).

One thing to remember about nitrous...it just makes the fuel in the engine burn faster. The extra power comes from adding the fuel to be burned...if you don't add enough fuel it will go lean, and KABOOM! (I had that happen once when I was running a seperate electric pump for my nitrous system, and it failed) If you have an adjustable system, you could run the 125 horse gas jet, and the 100 horse nitrous jet(that should get you 100 actual horsepower)...I would bet that would be plenty safe, but I obviously can't guarantee anything!

I have often thought that I should test it, and start selling jetting kits for E85 nitrous systems. Most people are a bit intimidated by the whole nitrous jetting thing, and prefer to not have to figure it out for themselves. I haven't used a preset recommended jetting setting for several years...I always fine tune it for what works best for me. I have gotten as many as 13 passes out of one 10 pound bottle without losing any et consistency. (of course that was only a 60 horse shot)

[MountainMoparRobin]

I was just at the Bandimere site and can't find the Tech inspection area so I can see what I need to do to pass tech? is their a place that has the tech rules listed? HITTIN 60 DEGREES TOMORROW

[etsweptster]

What you need is an NHRA rulebook. The NHRA website intentionally doesn't have anything online so that you have to buy their $10 rulebook. I should have one at my house since I pay my annual dues they send me a new one each year. Not much changes from one year to the next, so you could probably use my 2009 one and be fine...of course, I'm not home right now, but I will be for the first couple of weeks in April.

I can tell you the main things that will prevent you from running if you don't obey. Also, a lot of times they will let you slide the first time out if you only have one or two violations...especially if they think that you will run relatively slow. First, there are a couple that will prevent you from running with NO exceptions at Bandimere: No cracks in your windshield, you must have at least a one quart catch can on your overflow line on the radiator (this can be a 1 liter pop bottle with a hole in the cap that your hose fits tightly in that is ziptied in a vertical positon)...this rule is to keep any fluid off the track for obvious reasons.

They will test your neutral safety switch, you are limited to 1 foot of rubber fuel line, if your battery is in the back you have to have a shut off switch clearly marked with "OFF" on the back of the vehicle, if the battery has been moved it also has to be held down with a minimum of 2 3/8 bolts,(if they are j hook style the ends must be welded shut) seat belt must be securely attached (duh), must have all lugnuts on each wheel (yes 7 isn't enough if you have 8 lug wheels), you have to remove anything not bolted to the wheels like hubcaps or beautyrings, if you run slicks they will check for a driveshaft safety loof mounted within six inches of the front u-joint,(this is not required until a certain et unless it is a manual transmission car, or has a spooled rearend...then it is required at all ets. I can't remember what et it is, but I think maybe anything faster than 14.0).

You are allowed to run with one passenger if you run slower than 14.0, but they have to be over 16 years of age, and obviously have a seat belt. If you run faster than 14.0 you will need a helmet with a snell rating of M2000...unless that one expired this year, in which case you would need an M2005 or higher.(they will rent you a helmet at the track if you don't have one, and end up running fast enough to need one). Oh, they will also check for a valid driver's license, so don't forget to have that with you!

That's the major stuff that comes to my head right now. One thing that will help is to always talk down your vehicle. When they ask you what you think it will run, tell them something like "I'm hoping it will get into the 16s", they tend to ease up on the tech in these cases. If they think you will run in the 9s they will have 100 more things to check. Hope this helps...please, ask if you think of anything else you might be worried about. I used to help tech cars in Pueblo, so I know most of the rules, but I am probably forgetting something right now.

The only other thing I would worry about Robin is, if you run over 150mph you have to have an approved parachute attached to the chassis of the vehicle!!