E85 mix

[MountainMoparRobin]

Eddelbrock has a Performer carb that takes E85, the only thing different is the gasket material, however if you mix the E85 its not going to do anything right away, takes time and more usuage to do anything, its not like when the E85 first hits the rubber gaskets they shrivel up and start leaking. Gas here is 3.89 a gallon and E85 is 2.89, so I'm lookin at mixing 5-10 gallons of E85 in with an additional 10-15 gallons of regular gas.
Has anyone already done this?

[Jones]

Hey Robin,

So how are you going to keep your mix consistant? Or are you concerned about that?

My work truck can take the E85 fuel. I noticed when I filled it one time that the octane rating on the pump said 105. So would that give you a few more ponies if you switched over completely? Time for a little cost analysis?


Keith

[slick]

I've also heard that if you're going to run E-85 you're supposed to stick with it not bounce back and forth between the two . Also, i think you have to worry about all the rubber lines in your system. Look into http://www.thesuperchargerstore.com/ they do stuff with E-85

[MountainMoparRobin]

it doesn't do anything to rubber on contact, it would have to be over time, as far as the mix, I'm thinking of a 5 gallon to 15 gallon mix, this would be so the concetration wouldn't be so great to do anything, but will have to do more research.

[birddog_mopar]

TCC or Tarrant County College here in Fort Worth hosted a 2 hour class a couple of years ago on Ethanol hosted by the Ethanol group. I was actually quite intrigued by ethanol in the beginning but as I have learned more about it I now know it is not feasible nor cost effective. Here are the reasons why, first ethanol has a higher octane rating because it burns slower than gasoline and is not as easily ignited by a misfire or pinging you may hear from to low of octane fuel. But, Ethanol does not make as many BTU's of energy as gasoline so it requires more fuel to make the same amount of energy as gasoline. It actually takes about 30% more ethanol than gasoline to get the same amount of energy. Now gasoline that cost's 3.89 a gallon seems really expensive compared to ethanol that cost's 2.89 a gallon, but add in the 30% percent more fuel needed to make the same amount of energy and you come 3.79 a gallon for ethanol. Not that much cheaper now is it. Another big factor with ethanol is how corrosive it is, and not just to rubber but also aluminum. It is my understanding that for a carburetor to be E-85 usuable it must be completely anodized inside and out or the achohol will eat it from the inside out, not to mention that the carburetor must be jetted 30% richer. I think ethanol was a good idea but it has been detrimental to farmers who are raising cattle or any livestock, because the price of corn has gotten so high farmers can't afford to buy feed for their livestock. Becuase they are using it make ethanol, I heard a farmer say they predict a beef shortage for next year not to mention Tyson chicken shutting down several process plants because of feed has tripled in the last couple of years. Not trying to talk you out of using ethanol just trying to inform you.

[MountainMoparRobin]

There is truth to alot of what your saying and thanks for the input, and you brought out a very good point about the anodizing factor, I see that Edelbroks carburator isn't polished aluminum. Alot of people want to blame the ethonal on the high prices of corn but its not entirely true, notice I said entirely true, regardless of ethanol, farmers and ranchers alike are going to still raise their price, why, because of the rising fuel prices, example I deliver to rural farmers and on each frietht bill that they sign for delivery it has the regular price, and then it shows a FUEL SURCHARGE of 37%, that what my company charges just in fuel for us to deliver and our trucks burn diesel.
The whole United States is becoming cripled for every trucking company is charging a fuel surcharge to be able to deal with the high prices. Their is nothing you can buy, no matter what it is, thats not delivered by truck, its the single largest industry in United States.
Unless we start bringing out the drills and people pressure their congress and represenative's to drill, then it will only get worse not better
so find out who is your elected officials and let them know, drill in the Gulf, drill in Noth & South Dakota and Alaska
DRILL BABY Drill

[birddog_mopar]

That is a good point you made about the price of fuel and the price of anything. I didn't go into that because I didn't want to get into that much depth of the whole problem. Now i want to read a few articles by a local auto enthusiast who wites in the Fort Worth Star Telegram. His name is Ed Wallace. I believe that he is the only one who has the price of fuel issue right. I am not against drilling for oil here or building new refineries, but the whole problem of oil has nonthing to do with supply and demand. It has to do with oil futures markets in the stock market. When large banks tanked because of the housing fall, banks needed to mkae their money back in a different way. Manipulation in the oil futures market by investing huge sums of money from banks has caused oil companies stock to balloon out of control, and it has nothing to do with supply and demand. The deregulation of energy and the energy market is what has caused, all types of energy markets to have out of control increases. For instance here in Texas before, then, Govenor Bush deregulated energy people could afford electricity in their homes for a reasonanble cost. Now it has gone from $200.00 a month to as high as $500.00 a month in the same house, and that is really watching the electricity use. That is a seperate issue. If you really want to know more about what I am talking about read "There is no gas shortage" part 1 and 2 also read "ICE, ICE baby" in the two links I will post.

http://search.businessweek.com/Search?s ... PerPage=20
http://pd.dfw.com/sp?aff=101&keywords=ed+wallace

[nfury8]

The whole fuel story isn't getting told, and I will not go into that here.
As for ethanol, I tried it in my Fury on one trip 2 years ago. The motor
wasn't tuned for it, so it ran a little funky. The 440 in my Fury has an
MSD ignition and the MSD adjustable timing control. Ethanol needs
more advance on the spark and the cam, I could at least crank the spark.
I was able to add 8 degrees with no ping, I have it set to go forward or
back 8 degrees. I first ran a blend, and then full e85. It ran much better
on straight E85. Idle was rough, but did great on the highway. As mentioned,
it burns slower, my engine temps dropped 10 degrees! But the exhaust temps
are higher and it burned out a header gasket that had a very small leak.
E85 also likes extra compression, the 440 is about 9.5.

In my experience, 91 octane was $2.49 at the time (Oh I miss that!) E85
was $1.94. My mileage dropped 1 mpg, but it cost me 3 cents less per mile
in fuel.

I have also read multiple times it is best not to blend it yourself, which my
experience showed as well. My understanding on the rubber is that the 30-40 year
old stuff is in trouble, but the newer hoses aren't such an issue, since 10% blends
have been common for a couple decades now.

I am still a big believer in Ethanol, we just need to alter the raw materials being used.
Corn is easy, but it isn't efficient. Switchgrass and Elephant grass (Miscanthus) have
the potential to be as effective as sugarcane has been in Brazil. Brazil reached 100%
oil self-sufficiency in 2006 through a mass adoption of ethanol, which reaches back to
the late 70's. I have read that some current research with algae could even eclipse those!

[MountainMoparRobin]

I'm quit aware of the major screw up in the system on why only Americans pay the high price for oil I realize its just a bunch of bullshit of the system pulling the wool over our eyes.
nfury8 thanks for the input, sounds like my 440 would do fine, for I run 32 degrees advance and have the MSD also.
I support any alternatives, for the oil is no longer a reliable source and something else has to be done

[planefixr1019]

Do some research on HHO gas. I have a friend I work with who has had great results and you can build the generator yourself for around $60. I am sold from the results he has shown me, roughly 30% increase in milage. and with proper tuning and a few other bugs we are trying to work out he thinks we could see a 50-60% improvement.

[MountainMoparRobin]

Links?? more info please or where can it be found?

[oklamopar]

on the links for H20 generators.

As far as the e 85 is concerned. My wife does hospice work and there for drives 3k a month and we did a 2 month comparison on the 10% e85 and the 100% gasoline. mileage was down 25% [more or less] with the e85 mix and the cost difference in mix and 100% is only pennies here. so the conclusion is we will not use e85 as long as 100% gas is available.
Car in question is a 1999 dodge neon with a DOHC and auto. she averages 29mpg in town on 100% gas. 22mpg on mix , car also has 140k on it and is over maintenance [to some people].
also i agree on DRILL! DRILL!
Use the oil and look for alternatives while drilling.

Later,
Skip

[MountainMoparRobin]

oklamopar the 10% is standard gas mix now in almost every state, and here and other states thats all their is, thats the only gas avalaible E85 is 85% ethanol with 15% gas and cost at least $1.00 a gallon cheaper, if I had a flex fuel vehicle thats all I would burn

[quickd100]

If you're thinking of running E-85, to get the most out of it you'll want a motor with 12.5-13.5-1 compression. I built a 440 for my truck that was right at 11.2-1. I converted a thermoquad carb to run straight E-85. If you're thinking of messing with it, to get things RIGHT, you'll need a wide band exhaust gas meter such as an LM-1. I bought one and it's been the BEST money I ever spent on anything. If anyone is interested, here's a link where you can read an article I wrote for Mopar Action on the thermoquad conversion. Dave
http://www.moparts.org/moparts/picture/ ... /Vraa.html

[nfury8]

I watched an interview a year ago with a big wig at GM who claimed
it would cost less than $75 to convert most modern EFI vehicles to
Flex fuel. There are now companies out there that offer kits, but the
last time I checked the DOT hadn't approved any of them.

The big 3 have been making and selling Flex vehicles in Brazil
for over a decade. Apparently it is just a couple sensors and
tweaks to the engine computer.

[OregonDodgeboy]

I have been thinking alot about this fuel problem we're having, and I'm looking into this E85 myself. I am a huge proponent of BIoDiesel. I run it in my Benz and it is like a different car. And I was so enamored with it, that I was going to convert all my rigs to Diesel. But after looking into the huge cost of it, and the amount of time/miles it would take to recoup that cost, I am looking elsewhere. So I went looking around for info about the E85. The biggest advantage this stuff has is the octane rating. It rates around 105. And since I know from my personal experience, high octane fuels really wake up my 440's, I'm looking further.

We have already covered the fact thats around the reduced milage, etc. But building an optimized motor for it sounds to me to be a wiser course of action. I have read about people that build an engine with 12:1 compression and a mild performance cam, and running E85 see only a couple of MPG loss over their original numbers. The big thing I see is the conversion requires a different oxygen sensor (if you run EFI), or to put one in if you don't. There are a few units out there, and I believe a couple have gotten approval from the EPA. I'll have to review my history and find those links again. But I started out by looking around on the following sites:

http://www.planete85.com

http://www.e85forum.com

So what I am thinking is that I'll convert over to GM TBI (I covered this before on other posts), then add the control unit for the E85. But here's where it gets fun; I am thinking about adding a turbo to reduce my losses when on E85. Since many of the modern turbo cars have the computer linked to the turbo, I am thinking that I could have the turbo run different boost levels and such with the different fuels. I could run a blower, but I think I'd have to change the pulley on it if I switched fuels. And I'd rather not have that extra work if I can avoid it.

So then I got to thinking about how much power could I get from a twin turbo 440. Anybody care to take a guess? Anyway, in conclusion, I'm asking for the pro engine builders out there for their input. Anybody know anything about throwing turbos on a 440? (Insert mad scientist laugh here: Bwhahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!)

[soopernaut]

This guy knows about turboing a 440. http://members.aol.com/lqdnthusim/newpage.htm He's also on Moparts.

[MountainMoparRobin]

Seems that E85 would be a hotrodder's fuel of choice, go back to "Old School" and pump up the compression which is going to give ya a hell of alot more ponies, the mileage isn't much different at all, and its cheaper

[quickd100]

You'll pick up about 20-25 horsepower and torque on E-85. Dave

[OregonDodgeboy]

Well, I guess I have to find out more about how to make it a "flex-fuel" vehicle. I want to pump up my compression either with changing pistons or with forced induction. But I also don't want to melt down my motor if I try to run premium unleaded in it. So I guess the question lies within that. Because AFAIK, it's pretty tough to run premium unleaded in a 12:1 motor. But with TBI and electronic ignition (like a Mallory 6AL unit), how hard would it be to switch back to gasoline if the need ever arose? Because until you can get the E85 at most any gas station (even out in the sticks), I'll have no choice but to use it occasionally.