Sweptline.ORG

soopernaut wrote:Some of those posting do not have 68 or older trucks. Headers are easy on 69-71 trucks. Do not confuse the two subjects.

I thought the newer trucks had the additional cross brace? So my '70 100 with a stock 383 would be fine? It sounds stupid with a truck that gets 7-10 MPG, but MPG gains in low fuel mileage vehicles pay out much better then your 50 MPG Prius.

For example, say you drive 900 miles a month, you're paying about $270 a month in gas at $3 a gallon. The 50 MPG Prius driver is spending $54. If you can go from getting 10 MPG to 12 MPG in your Dodge then you’re going to save about $54 a month, if the Prius owner gained 20% in mileage they would only save $11. So those headers, electronic ignition, taller gears, and some careful carb tuning will pay for themselves eventually. Plus, your truck is paid for and the Prius owner still has his $400 car payment.

BradyB wrote:

soopernaut wrote:Some of those posting do not have 68 or older trucks. Headers are easy on 69-71 trucks. Do not confuse the two subjects.

I thought the newer trucks had the additional cross brace? So my '70 100 with a stock 383 would be fine? It sounds stupid with a truck that gets 7-10 MPG, but MPG gains in low fuel mileage vehicles pay out much better then your 50 MPG Prius.

For example, say you drive 900 miles a month, you're paying about $270 a month in gas at $3 a gallon. The 50 MPG Prius driver is spending $54. If you can go from getting 10 MPG to 12 MPG in your Dodge then you’re going to save about $54 a month, if the Prius owner gained 20% in mileage they would only save $11. So those headers, electronic ignition, taller gears, and some careful carb tuning will pay for themselves eventually. Plus, your truck is paid for and the Prius owner still has his $400 car payment.

Sixty-eight and older has the two transmission cross members. One near the bell housing area of the transmission to mount the older style manuals and the mount further back to mount the automatic. Sixty-nine and newer just have the one cross member for all transmissions (the tail shaft mount).

Alright I'm thoroughly confused. I've been reading header threads on and off for a few weeks and I have to ask, what header pn do I need to order for a 413 RB in a 63/64 swepty? Pushbutton Auto. I dont' care if it has to be shorty's, I do care that they work w/out bashing them flat, if thats possible.

Sir

You may want to contact Ben of the Custom Sports Special
& High Performance Package R E G I S T R Y so that you
can get some accreted information of what is availible
for you to purchase, or better yet , to do for your 413
powered truck.

Now back to the subject of headers on another 's vehicle.


Rodger & Gabby
COS

Hello All

I know that some will always use the after market headers even
though they have been informed over and over there is a lower
costing and effective way to enhance the power and the MPG.

Please take a moment and look at the 1978 to 1976 Dodge
LT Truck 440 or 400 Exhaust Manifolds.

Opps I lost the "tag of the photo".

It is a "mind/eye appeal" vs truely getting more power.


Rodger & Gabby
COS

dietzdiggler wrote:Alright I'm thoroughly confused. I've been reading header threads on and off for a few weeks and I have to ask, what header pn do I need to order for a 413 RB in a 63/64 swepty? Pushbutton Auto. I dont' care if it has to be shorty's, I do care that they work w/out bashing them flat, if thats possible.

You don't have to smash header to get them to fit on your year truck even if you leave that unused NP435 mount in.
And their are other threads with flow numbers that prove headers out flow manifold exhaust at ALL RPM'S regardless, manifolds cannot flow the exhaust as fast as headers

Robyn

If you have current information on the correct part number and the
dyno print out that shows what power enhancement the headers
give at below 3,000 RPM's ( known to most as normal engine
speeds ), please help us out.


Rodger & Gabby
COS

Back to "headers for our trucks (with B/RB's)" My motor isn't stock and will need headers to breath, so I'm with you Robin, but who can tell us what brand and PN we need to order? Ceramic coated if available. Shorties and/or longtubes, what have ya'll bought, installed and know work? Thanks guys....

dietzdiggler wrote:Back to "headers for our trucks (with B/RB's)" My motor isn't stock and will need headers to breath, so I'm with you Robin, but who can tell us what brand and PN we need to order? Ceramic coated if available. Shorties and/or longtubes, what have ya'll bought, installed and know work? Thanks guys....

dietzdiggler -

there are no "out of the box" header applications for the 61 to 68 trucks because of the transmission bell cross-member. additionally the typical shorties may come in contact with the floating power mounts that RB engines used on the HPP trucks.

what mounts are you using for your truck? the bell mounts or something you fabricated?

you may consider as set of block huggers but then you may have issues with power steering hoses if so equipped.

if you have access to a welder you could refab a set of headers and then have them coated.

if you end up going with what Rodger is suggesting and using cast iron manifolds i would avoid the RB 63 to 66 chrysler cast manifolds that are stock on the HPP trucks as they are prone to cracking - i added flex tubes on mine to protect the hard to find manifolds.

the 71 and up RB center dump truck cast manifolds are a good design and have ribs to protect from cracks. they run out nice but for an all-out performance application a tube header is what you need.

if you're bent on long tubes for your 63/64 i think you're in the best place to figure it out.

someone here with more knowledge than me for a non-stock application will surely help a brother out.

Ben

garrett wrote:I picked up a pair of headmans for a 72 4wd they fit like a glove.

The '68 and older Sweptlines have a different frame cross member configuration than
the '69-'71s.
John

Id like to know the best model 61-68 for LA 318 & 4 spd also....



Is the extra crossmember necessary with 4 speed?

wally426ci wrote:Id like to know the best model 61-68 for LA 318 & 4 spd also....



Is the extra crossmember necessary with 4 speed?

look underneath and I believe you will see that it is being used, the mount is for the NP435, you'll also see that unfortunitly you have 2 driveshaft loss of power, but you'll probably not be racing it anyway.

Rodger wrote:Robyn

If you have current information on the correct part number and the
dyno print out that shows what power enhancement the headers
give at below 3,000 RPM's ( known to most as normal engine
speeds ), please help us out.


Rodger & Gabby
COS

Roger, that info has already been posted, and it shows that headers, even at idle give you at LEAST 10% GAIN over stock manifold, you have said, for some reason that headers start flowing at 3000 RPM, well that is a myth and common sense will tell you other wise, benefits of headers start as soon as the engine starts! You have never had dyno testing to prove the mysterious statement of "they don't flow until 3000 rpm" as if their is some sort of switch that turns them on, That is BS. their is no, NO, stock manifold ever created that will outflow headers at any RPM, the dyno info was posted by another forum member the last time you laid claim to the stock manifold and single exhaust out performing headers, NOT TRUE IN ANY APLICATION! Now I'm not saying everyone should have headers, but you have never posted any info to even come close to where your theory comes from, because it isn't true.

MountainMoparRobin wrote:

wally426ci wrote:Id like to know the best model 61-68 for LA 318 & 4 spd also....



Is the extra crossmember necessary with 4 speed?

look underneath and I believe you will see that it is being used, the mount is for the NP435, you'll also see that unfortunitly you have 2 driveshaft loss of power, but you'll probably not be racing it anyway.

I would settle for shorties.... no not racing either...

Like I said, JeffC had a set of shortys that work with the huge engine mounts and a big block. I linked to the company's site but it doesn't necessarily look like they make them any more. You may just need to call and see.

If you've got a big block and a '68 and older frame and want long tube headers it is going to be up to you to do some cutting and welding.

Hello All

Since I am not a "summit racing" junkie I looked up their
Tech Support number and spoke to "Terry". I asked if
he had a chart from any maker showing the bennies of
their product at differant RPM's. He said this is no
longer done by the makers and the buyer should first
buy the product and then have their vehicle dyno tested.

So, I found this. It has been a year since MoPar
Muscle Magazine published a articule on this subject
that was then linked to this site.

For the story they used what is advertised as a "300 HP"
Crate LA-360. This engine has a cam spec'd at 0.385
Intake Duration and 0.410 Exhaust Duration ( which is
not very good for a truck driving at speeds up to 80
MPH on the Hwy's ). They also used a 750 CFM Carb.
**************************************************************************
This "test" was done with the engine on a stand, not at the
rear wheels as you drive your vehicle.
**************************************************************************
For test one they used the LA-273/318 OEM Exh Manifolds
that were used up to the end of the 1974 production year. This
did not impress me from a articule on HP from a "Muscle Magazine"
since the 360 heads are designed/build better at the Exh Ports
and they used the restricting manifolds on their testing.
The numbers showed 311 HP at 4,600 RPM's.

Test @2 was with a set of 1975 and newer OEM Smog Spec'd
Exh Manifolds. These manifolds matched the Exh Ports and
showed 314 HP and 407 lbs of Torque.
***************************************************************************
This could make one think what would it show if they had
used a set of 1972 - 1974 360 Exh Manifolds on the 360 Heads.
***************************************************************************

Here is the Chart from MoPar Muscle on using the 360 Engine.

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/tech ... to_17.html

Since the average/normal driver stays under the posted RPM's
of MoPar Muscles Testing, I wonder what such low RPM
readings would show at 2200 RPM's while driving at a part
throttle ( with out a 750 CFM Carb ).

Every thing stated above also is the same like knowledge
with the front distributor engines.


Rodger & Gabby
COS

Looking at that link, they did test with the 340 HP exhaust manifolds...which are considered to be the best ever offered by mopar, and they did pick up torque to 409 and the horsepower to 315. The cheap 1 5/8 summit type, or cheap heddman headers picked it up to 423 torque and 319 horsepower. Even the very large 1 3/4 tube headers like I run picked up the numbers above 2500rpm... the standard size and length headers were identical hp and torque numbers to the best stock type manifold at 2500rpm, and then improved dramatically from there on up. What these tests don't show is the improvement in fuel mileage as well. The hp and torqued gains come from letting the engine breath better, which means it works less, using less gas.

I remember a Hot Rod Magazine test they did on a 360 with a milder cam, and the headers made an even more impressive gain at the lower rpms (2000 to 3000rpm) over the stock manifolds.

My favorite part of headers is the exhaust note. You can hear every cylinder firing at the tailpipes...sweet music to my ears!

If you have the money to Extrude hone your stock manifolds, you can increase the flow dramatically. There are low 10 second cars running in the factory appearing drags, and they have to run stock manifolds, exhaust manifolds, and even factory appearing tires! I saw a hemi that made something like 850 horsepower with open headers, and still made over 700 through the stock manifolds, and 2 1/2 inch exhaust. In the early 80's Hot Rod Mag took a bone stock, low mileage 70 LS6 Chevelle and ran it down the quartermile. I think it ran a really low 14, like maybe 14 flat...they put some slicks on it, and it ran 12.90ish...then they put headers on it with 3 inch exhaust, and it went 11.90ish. (and this wasn't at a sealevel track either) I always wanted to see them do that with a hemi cuda! Man the factories used to build some wicked cars!

Hello There

I felt this was a subject that you would respond to.

The Test # 3 only got one HP more that what #2
got using the 1975 Smog Manifolds and that is not
to much to brag about even though they used the
273/318 pre-1975 Manifolds on the 360 Heads
for test #1.

The other part is they were using a 750 CFM Carb.

If us normal street driver's use a Engine and Exhaust
System that has printed recordings as headers and
etc are showing, the fuel bill will stop us from driving
to see each other.

If we are to only think of getting the RPM's above 2,500
RPM's as soon as possible and the heck with sipping
fuel, then the header's are what the most of us are to
need. There is no bragging to that when you must
keep the RPM's up to visit each other.


Rodger & Gabby
COS

CSS-Registry wrote:

dietzdiggler wrote:Back to "headers for our trucks (with B/RB's)" My motor isn't stock and will need headers to breath, so I'm with you Robin, but who can tell us what brand and PN we need to order? Ceramic coated if available. Shorties and/or longtubes, what have ya'll bought, installed and know work? Thanks guys....

dietzdiggler -

there are no "out of the box" header applications for the 61 to 68 trucks because of the transmission bell cross-member. additionally the typical shorties may come in contact with the floating power mounts that RB engines used on the HPP trucks.

what mounts are you using for your truck? the bell mounts or something you fabricated?

you may consider as set of block huggers but then you may have issues with power steering hoses if so equipped.

if you have access to a welder you could refab a set of headers and then have them coated.

if you end up going with what Rodger is suggesting and using cast iron manifolds i would avoid the RB 63 to 66 chrysler cast manifolds that are stock on the HPP trucks as they are prone to cracking - i added flex tubes on mine to protect the hard to find manifolds.

the 71 and up RB center dump truck cast manifolds are a good design and have ribs to protect from cracks. they run out nice but for an all-out performance application a tube header is what you need.

if you're bent on long tubes for your 63/64 i think you're in the best place to figure it out.

someone here with more knowledge than me for a non-stock application will surely help a brother out.

Ben

Thanks for this informative post Ben, its much appreciated. I have a set of Hedman shorties in the attic I may try. I wonder if the Shumacher Tri Y's would work? The truck is a slant 6, which I'm swapping the 413 into. For motor mounts, I'm not sure if I'll use shumacher mounts, find a swap meet set, or make something. You have definitely let me know how to approach the subject when I make the swap though. Again Thank You!

Rodger wrote:Hello All

Since I am not a "summit racing" junkie I looked up their
Tech Support number and spoke to "Terry". I asked if
he had a chart from any maker showing the bennies of
their product at differant RPM's. He said this is no
longer done by the makers and the buyer should first
buy the product and then have their vehicle dyno tested.

So, I found this. It has been a year since MoPar
Muscle Magazine published a articule on this subject
that was then linked to this site.

For the story they used what is advertised as a "300 HP"
Crate LA-360. This engine has a cam spec'd at 0.385
Intake Duration and 0.410 Exhaust Duration ( which is
not very good for a truck driving at speeds up to 80
MPH on the Hwy's ). They also used a 750 CFM Carb.
**************************************************************************
This "test" was done with the engine on a stand, not at the
rear wheels as you drive your vehicle.
**************************************************************************
For test one they used the LA-273/318 OEM Exh Manifolds
that were used up to the end of the 1974 production year. This
did not impress me from a articule on HP from a "Muscle Magazine"
since the 360 heads are designed/build better at the Exh Ports
and they used the restricting manifolds on their testing.
The numbers showed 311 HP at 4,600 RPM's.

Test @2 was with a set of 1975 and newer OEM Smog Spec'd
Exh Manifolds. These manifolds matched the Exh Ports and
showed 314 HP and 407 lbs of Torque.
***************************************************************************
This could make one think what would it show if they had
used a set of 1972 - 1974 360 Exh Manifolds on the 360 Heads.
***************************************************************************

Here is the Chart from MoPar Muscle on using the 360 Engine.

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/tech ... to_17.html

Since the average/normal driver stays under the posted RPM's
of MoPar Muscles Testing, I wonder what such low RPM
readings would show at 2200 RPM's while driving at a part
throttle ( with out a 750 CFM Carb ).

Every thing stated above also is the same like knowledge
with the front distributor engines.


Rodger & Gabby
COS

So basically a set of very cheap and poorly designed headers performed as well as or outperformed the best designed exhaust manifold that Mopar ever made.

The 340 manifolds are selling for a minimum of $250 EACH on eBay. And that's the minimum. And they could be unrepairably warped or require some kind of machine work to get them straight again (ah, the joys of eBay). I can't find reproduction 340 exhaust manifolds via a quick search but reproduction B/RB HP manifolds are $500 from Year One and once you tack on their unreasonable handling charges.... well, you get the point.

And let's talk about engine speed. If you are cruising down the road with tires that are 255/60/15s (what I'm running --- about 27" tall), a 3:55 gear ratio, and at 75mph your engine speed is over 3300 rpm. This is the range where headers, even under the most skeptical of views, are "working." And if you are going 65mph and pull out to pass someone, where you might like to have some power, you engine speed is still over 2900 rpm when you start. Okay, so maybe you don't have 3.55s and are running 3.23s instead you are still turning over 3000rpm at 75mph and 2600rpm at 65mph. And that's all assuming you are running a manual in the 1:1 gear or an auto in drive with a perfectly efficient torque converter. If you are running without a perfectly efficient torque converter (and all of us with autos are) then the engine speed is even higher. To summarize, many of us often drive around with engine speeds EXACTLY in the area where headers shine.

If I wanted to pull out and not have the power to pass I'd drive a Honda. And I don't like to putz around town in the way of everyone else either.