Engine turns over, but wont start

[Drummerdad]

Talking to a friend today, we were discussing the truck. I explained the situation and we agree it was probably too cold for the gas to have an effect. So I got a can of starting fluid and we just tried it again. It backfired through the carb, so I moved the plug wires, and it backfired through the exhaust. So...my timing is way off. Ill reset it, and try again. Ill post when I get more information.

[Drummerdad]

I found TDC and pulled all the plug wires and reset them. I checked for voltage at the coil while cranking. I have 12 volts, until she cranks it, then it drops to about 9. I also removed the ballast resistor as suggested by someone earlier. It still hasnt cranked, and I am stinking up the garage bad. So, Im going to finish the brakes this week and get it on the ground, mount the battery and the radiator, and try again outside in a week or two. I need to put gas in it, and really try and run it and check for leaks and such. Im just piddling around now. Although I really wanted it to start. I guess Im trying to get ahead of myself.

Ill report back to this thread when I try again.

[PwrWgnDrvr]

Was it TDC on compression stroke or exhaust stroke?

[Hobcobble]

Was it TDC on compression stroke or exhaust stroke?

Ed Zachary.....


John

[Drummerdad]

I removed the #1 plug, and put a small hose in the hole. I turned the engine over until air came out of the hole ( I read a few posts and watched a video to show how to find TDC without removing a valve cover). On one rotation, as the dampener comes past the TDC mark, there isnt any air coming out..at least you cant here it. On the next rotation, as you cross the TDC mark, you can hear air coming out of the hole. I went to the TDC mark, noted the position of the rotor, and that is the #1 plug position on the distributor. Then I added the other 7 wires in clockwise rotation (looking down) for a firing order of 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.

I could see the piston so it is at the top, although maybe it could use a little timing retard for starters. I understand I might be off by 180 degrees, but I dont think I am, and it would still fire anyway, maybe not run, but stumble. All I have got so far is backfiring. Im going to get the brakes and wheels on, get the battery installed where it goes (I ordered the cables last night) and push the truck outside so I can really troubleshoot it. I am nervous doing too much in the garage.

[Drummerdad]

I wanted to revisit this post. I attempted to start the truck again today. I checked everything again. I have 2.9-3.2 volts on the neg - side of the coil, and 12 on the pos +. While cranking, it drops to 9 volts on the positive, and stays at about 3 on the negative. I think the coil is bad, although it does provide a weak spark. I used my tester, and my timing light. Both show I have spark, but its very faint. I think the coil is weak (its getting warm while Im trying to start the truck) and my timing is still off. Ill reset the timing and replace the coil, then try it again.

I didnt know if the voltages at the coil give anyone a hint. I used the link someone provided on an earlier post, and it said to see check the negative side of the coil with a test light and see if it pulses. Mine does.

[swptln]

Sounds somewhat normal to me.
Coil will get hot while cranking, especially if your doing a lot of cranking.
Your ignition switch has two ignition positions, "Start" and "Run", Start/Cranking bypasses the ballast resistor and gives a full 12Volts to the coil, when you release to run, it goes through the ballast resistor to cut the voltage down to 7-9 volts. Yes, you should see pulsing on the negative side of the coil as the points are making and breaking the ground, which in turn fires the secondary side of the coil.
If the coil is weak, it could be your problem. You should see a little better spark while cranking, provided your getting a full 11-12Volts while cranking.
If not, you may have an issue with your starter drawing too much or a weak battery.

[swptln]

All I have got so far is backfiring.

This is a really good indication, your 180 out.

[PwrWgnDrvr]

No points Mark, its EI.

[Drummerdad]

After the big backfire, I reset the initial, but it seemed okay. It hasnt hit since. I tried another coil from the Ford, and I know its good, but it didnt change anything. I ran into some other big issues this weekend, so Im going to really dig at this starting tomorrow. Ill charge the battery tonight, buy another coil on the way home tomorrow, and try it again.

I might not be getting enough fuel and starting fluid in it. Im a bit gun shy, as it is in my basement. Also when we were working on the Ford, we loaded it up, and when it finally got fire it blew the muffler in half. I thought I was dead. The rust and dirt from the truck was raining falling and it sounded like rain.

[PwrWgnDrvr]

Are you absolutely sure the distributor is pointing to the #1 plug wire at TDC on the compression stroke when the timing marks line up at 0?

[Drummerdad]

Are you absolutely sure the distributor is pointing to the #1 plug wire at TDC on the compression stroke when the timing marks line up at 0?

I would say yes, because I set it twice, but it could be I did it wrong both times. But Im going to re-set it tomorrow, and triple check it. For what its worth, I turned the distributor when it backfired, both directions in an attempt to make it start, but it never hit again. I think if I re-check the TDC, and get a new coil, with a fresh battery, and maybe some gas now that stations are getting deliveries here again....maybe it will do something.

[PwrWgnDrvr]

How are you determining if its TDC on the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke?

[Drummerdad]

The first time I had the valve cover off, and turned the crank till the TDC mark was on the mark. If I remember correctly, both valves must be closed. If they arent, it isnt TDC. Then I made sure the firing order was right, and the rotor was on #1. When I tried starting it, it was here, and backfired. I turned the distributor both ways a little and tried it in several positions.

The second time, I had already sealed the valve covers, so I removed the #1 plug, and stuck a welding rod in, until the #1 piston was all the way up, and the timing mark was on the TDC mark. I went around one full 360 degree rotation, and checked to see if air came out just before it came back to the same spot, which it did. The rotor was still on #1, so I left it. I havent got a backfire or a pop since.

I got both of these methods from Youtube. I can pull a valve cover if needed, but I would rather not. At this point, Ill pull anything to get to the bottom of the issue, and start this truck.

[712edf]

Try to start it. If no go, put a rubber band around the terminal on the distributor that you have the #1 plug wire going to. Now move each plug wire 4 places clockwise (If small block).This is essentially the same as turning dist 180 degrees. Try to start. If still no go then something else is going on.

Bucky

[BigBlockTrucks]

Just to bring up another point,has the OP done a compression test? If it is TDC on compression stroke and still backfiring there could be other issues going on. Sticking valve or bad valve? A compression test and leak down test will give a lot of answers.

[PwrWgnDrvr]

Bad condenser makes a weak spark.
If mechanical lifters, valve adjustment wrong.

[Drummerdad]

To answer some of the replies. Its electronic, so there are no points or condenser. The engine ran fine last time, and was only out for the frame mods, I didnt get into it at all. I removed the distributor to paint it and clean it up. The internal gear under the distributor moved when I turned the engine over. I noticed it wasnt seated when I put the distributor in, so I pushed it back down, and set the timing. The compression was fine, and all the valves were too.

It could be that the Ron Francis wiring kit was installed and the truck ran when it had the automatic. I have since switched to the NP435. Ill look into this, but the neutral safety switch seems to have no effect on it. Ive tried it both ways, open and closed.

[Drummerdad]

I got a new coil, and installed it today. I also re-checked the firing order and initial timing. I sprayed a butt ton of starting fluid into the carb and it didnt start.

It is stumbling over, like its trying to. So, I got the gas can, and ran a hose into it, hoping if it picked up some gas it would roll over. I found the pump to be bad. It just wont pick up any gas. I poured gas into the carb also, but it only stumbles and pops through the carb. A few of the stumbles sounded like they might work. Ill try again with a new fuel pump. It has an edelbrock carb, so I dong know where to add fuel to the bowl. I guess I could take the top off. Ill look.

Im actually in the garage typing this up. If I dont respond ever again, its because I blew myself up with the fumes.

[Drummerdad]

Success! It started!

So, I kept reading about spitting or backfiring through the carb, and everyone said "its 180 out". So in a fit of frustration, I pulled all the wires off, and started them 180 away from what I thought was TDC. And it started.

So the fuel pump is junk, Ill get one later this week. Then Ill put gas in it, and try to actually make it run. I still need radiator hoses, and a few other details. It sounded very good, but itll need some attention.

Thank you all for helping. I guess my next post will be tuning.