Distributor/Timing Woes

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Utiline65
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Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by Utiline65 »

Let me run down the issues and sequence of events and see what others have to say. 1965 225 is the engine in question.
1] Truck could have used a tune up a few months back, but kept driving it.
2] Took an interstate trip to a buddies house of about 30 miles at 55-60 mph...no problems
3] Went to leave, could not get it to stay running...maybe one or two hits but once the key was released...NADA.
4] Returned in a week with tune-up items, points plugs, condenser, wires, cap, rotor. Checked and suspected the Ballast resistor but it "looked" good.
5] Threw in the tune up items, still NADA, but buddy discovered that if ignition was held between START and ON, engine would run.
6] Jumped out ballast resistor which solved that problem and limped the truck home the same 30 miles. It died twice but was able to get it going both times by just restarting and driving.
7] Put in a ballast resistor at home, point gap and timing where still good. Timing was kind of not holding steady but in the general right area with vacuum advance removed.
6] Drove truck to work the next day and all HELL broke loose...back fires through the carb etc...barely limped the truck to work where it stayed until I returned that evening with a new set of points.
7] New points in and set, truck ran once again but noticed that timing was maxed out at end of allowable travel on distributor. Kind of noted that before too. Could only get it to run way advanced. Drove truck home the next day.
8] Removed distributor and noticed that it is maxed out on the underside setting as well.
9] Now even with engine at TDC compression, distributor with rotor does not want to seem to set in properly to line up to or near a spark tower [somewhere between] and points are somewhere between the lobes...nowhere near starting to open etc.
10] What am I missing here?

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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by dodgeboykim »

Maybe timing chain has skipped. :thinking

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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by Utiline65 »

A fellow employee mentioned that as a possible problem. I don't want to believe that because of course that means a heck of a lot of work. However, this just occurred to me... Could it be the drive for the oil pump needing to be rotated slightly to get the distributor gear to what to fall into the appropriate tooth?

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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by marklein »

Timing chain.

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swptln
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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by swptln »

5] Threw in the tune up items, still NADA, but buddy discovered that if ignition was held between START and ON, engine would run.
6] Jumped out ballast resistor which solved that problem and limped the truck home the same 30 miles. It died twice but was able to get it going both times by just restarting and driving.
Sounds like you now have two problems: One if your ignition switch is not working properly and you jumped out you ballast resistor for a long period of time, you probably fried your coil. Fix/replace the ignition switch then replace the coil and see what happens or go from there. The ignition coil will not last very long shooting full 12 volts to it. You may have also fried your points too.
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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by Roxyflash »

My brother bought ignition parts from orieleys point were s h i t this on a 66 d200 engine backfired ran like crap.The points could not be adjusted properly had to file down the rubing block to make it work to get him home.After that went and bought blue streak points,i have also seen the later model use a nylon gear on the distributor and they crack csusing a no start or run like crap.Also i seen where you have to losen the bolt on the plate on the distributor to adjust the timing because of chain streach mosr people just loosen the bolt on the block.
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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by Utiline65 »

Swptin: it's is not the switch. Obviously the ignition switch "somehow" works along with the ballast resistor in this fashion. I/we thought it was the switch as well. I had two switches keyed the same. I replaced with the other switch but ended up with he same "between START / ON" position problem...it wasn't until I jumped the ballast resistor out that this problem went away. The nylon gear looks worn and that would explain the timing mark jumping around in the same relative place. I have a new coil, new points and will, in the next few days, remove the valve cover to make ABSOLUTELY sure that I am at TDC compression before going any further. This may also reveal a jumped timing chain problem. Rebuilt distributor is also on order.

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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by swptln »

Aside from your distributor problems.

The ignition switch has two wires that are switched:
I1 goes to one side of your ballast resistor with the wire that goes to your coil, I1 will have full 12 volts while cranking.
I2 goes to the other side of ballast resistor, this will have full 12 volts in run position.
The other side of ballast resistor with I1 and coil wire will have reduced voltage in run position.

If your jumping out the ballast resistor, your going to fry your coil.
If you have to jump out the ballast resistor, something is screwed up in the wiring.
Here is how your wiring should be connected.

http://www.dodgesweptline.org/repairtip ... age001.jpg
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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by Utiline65 »

swptln wrote:If your jumping out the ballast resistor, your going to fry your coil.
If you have to jump out the ballast resistor, something is screwed up in the wiring.
Thanks for the link. I jumped out the ballast resistor to get the truck home instead of driving 60 miles [30 miles each way] to work on it. If the coil was fried, I have a new one to replace it. There is one other possiblity that you did not mention...that being the ballast resistor itself was bad and all else in the wiring good.

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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by swptln »

Yes, that could be.......
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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by Utiline65 »

Okay...an update. I decided to remove the valve cover to insure that I am at TDC #1 Cylinder and to insure that my timing chain did not jump a link/tooth, I also removed the timing chain cover.

Image
With the crank pulley mark at "0" on the timing chain cover mark, valve cover removed and #1 cylinder intake and exhaust tappets with clearance indicating compression stroke, this is where the timing marks on the cam sprocket and crank gear ended up.

Image
It seemed too coincidental to me that the marks looked about 180° out so I rolled the crank and got what you see above. It seems good now...just that #6 cylinder seems to be at TDC compression stoke [both intake and exhaust tappets have clearance].

Image
In any event, this is where the crank pulley timing mark is now in relation to the timing cover indicator. The shop manual says, "(1) Rotate the crankshaft until No. 1 cylinder is at top dead center on firing stroke. At this point, the straight line on the vibration damper should be under "0" on the timing indicator, which is located on the chain case cover. (Fig 25)". Of course that statement refers to ignition timing and NOT valve timing.

Image
So, I'm a little confused where the timing mark is supposed to be at this point before trying to drop the distributor back into the engine. I'm sure however that the valves and pistons are properly timed.

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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by wally426ci »

Replace it while you are in there maybe.

Switch wise, did you replace the key cylinder when you say "keyed"? Or the switch itself?

If it is 180 out just turn the distributor 180.

Best of luck man. That sucks

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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by Utiline65 »

I had a separate ignition switch that was keyed the same. We determined that it was not the switch but the ballast resistor causing the problem; ballast resistor changed.
You know, there is something odd about the distributor as well that I am not used to. When the rotor is placed in the slot on the cam and the lobe of the cam is causing the points to open, the rotor does not point at a spark plug tower. :thinking

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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by swptln »

I would definitely re-time the motor, based on what your showing, your valve timing is not correct.
With #1 piston at TDC your timing marks on your sprockets should be lined up. As you mentioned the timing mark on the damper is not that critical although it should be close when the #1 piston is at TDC. You can remark your damper to get a base line with #1 at TDC. Once your cam and crank are timed to TDC then you can drop your distributor in and set it to #1 on your cap.
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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by Utiline65 »

What you're saying is that my valves ARE 180° out? I'm curious, is a 225 an interference engine? I"m able to roll the crank 360° without any valves colliding with the pistons...is that right? The shop manual does not make mention of having No.1 cylinder at TDC when installing the cam shaft sprocket and timing chain...only that centerline of the mark on the cam lines up with the centerline mark of the crankshaft sprocket. It does not make mention of the damper lining up with the "0" on the timing chain cover either.

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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by swptln »

I guess on the slant six, when #1 is at TDC the cam timing mark is 180 off.
So, as long as the valves are closed on #1 @ TDC you are good. When #1 is at TDC and valves are fully closed your valves at #6 will be slightly open.
Set your distributor for #1 and you should be good.
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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by my5thmopar »

After 260+ views and nobody stopped the guessing, let me help ya out.
1) Like wally said, you’re in there just replace the timing chain.
2) Did you replace the condenser along with the points?
3) There is a second bolt on the bottom of the distributor, don’t mess with it unless you can’t get the timing on with the new mark explained below.
4) The picture with the chain dot to dot looks correct. When it is in that position, the rotor points to #6. #1 and #6 are at TDC but, #1 is exhaust and #6 is compression. Drop distributor in pointing to #6, yes #6 when dot to dot.
5) Only way to check marks is with a piston stop. Make or buy one and use it. Install stop, rotate engine by hand slowly, when piston stops put mark on the balancer/crank pulley. Rotate engine opposite direction and make another mark, half way between is true TDC. Remark the balancer and move tab if needed to zero.

Craig

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Re: Distributor/Timing Woes

Post by Utiline65 »

Thanks Craig and Mark. The clouds are beginning to clear. I'm more accustomed to vintage Chevrolets and while much is the same in respect to an in-line 6, the 225 has enough differences to make it a little confusing. Again, thanks.

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