Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

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GiS
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Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

Post by GiS »

Hey guys, installing a Electronic Ignition kit on my 66 Poly 318 tonight/this weekend and think I have confused myself while thinking about this ...

1. After installing the EI kit, do I NEED to replace my Ignition Coil?? I've read about a few people doing that and I am not sure if it was required, or if this was simply done to eliminate the ballast resistor? .. I did gap my plugs at 0.040 in anticipation,

2. While we are on it, when I got this truck initially .. The alternator was dead, I bought and installed a replacement which appears to be working just fine. However, the alternator I removed was a "dual field" however only ONE of the fields was being used .. The new alternator I installed is also a "dual field" and again, I have plugged in and am using only a single field. Should I ground this second field to the case of the alternator? What would that solve or what problem would that prevent?

Thanks!

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Hobcobble
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Re: Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

Post by Hobcobble »

What type of E.I. have you installed? :thinking
John

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pwadventurer
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Re: Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

Post by pwadventurer »

GiS wrote:
1. After installing the EI kit, do I NEED to replace my Ignition Coil?? I've read about a few people doing that and I am not sure if it was required, or if this was simply done to eliminate the ballast resistor? .. I did gap my plugs at 0.040 in anticipation,
Gis, i'm not sure what the rating of you coil is now, but Mopar performance recommends a minimum 20KV rating and a maximum of 40KV for high compression high lift engines with a .035" spark plug gap. The original ballast resistor gets swapped out with a new one with kit, it doesn't get eliminated.
Gis wrote: 2. While we are on it, when I got this truck initially .. The alternator was dead, I bought and installed a replacement which appears to be working just fine. However, the alternator I removed was a "dual field" however only ONE of the fields was being used .. The new alternator I installed is also a "dual field" and again, I have plugged in and am using only a single field. Should I ground this second field to the case of the alternator? What would that solve or what problem would that prevent?

Thanks!
Yes,
The field coil needs to be a complete circuit for it to work properly. The more voltage the field terminals get from the regulator, the more the unit puts out to its maximum rating. With the original alternator, the 12 volt + to the single field terminal, was controlled from the voltage regulator, and the 12 volt - was grounded at the alternator. With electronic voltage regulators, there are two field terminals. 12 volt + is constant from the ignition switch to field terminal 1 on the alternator. Field terminal 2 is 12 volt - from the voltage regulator. In both cases the circuit is complete via the regulator. With an open field terminal, the circuit is not complete and the regulator cannot work properly to tell the alternator how much output is needed, so you'll need to ground 1 of the field terminals.

Rick

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Re: Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

Post by archlab »

Hiya,
I upgraded my entire Electrical Charging & Ignition system for 2 '67 & '68 Barracudas plus my '69 D100. I did not need to replace the coil. For what I did, these are some pretty helpful links below:

a) Wiring Diagram http://www.mrmopar.com/1970DodgeTruck/w ... e-Full.png
b) MAD Electrical Guide: http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical ... uges.shtml
c) AllPar Discussion & Guide to Electrical Upgrades: http://www.allpar.com/history/mopar/electrical.html

Hope this stuff helps, I replaced the charging system with a later model Alternator & Voltage Regulator setup (used an alternator from a 1980's V8 on one & I think that I used an Alternator from a 2000's model Intrepid- yes, it was a Nippondenso - 90amp or so). I recommend the Nippondenso, as (at the time) the price was better & it fit fine. Also, I can definitely tell you guys that these were excellent improvements which eliminated any charging problems & got the power suitable for all my needs.

BTW, I highly recommend checking your wiring, esp. the Bulkhead COnnector (see Items b & c above). That is a real (if not THE) major electrical problem on Mopars in general.

Best to your upgrades, you'll be glad you did them.

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Re: Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

Post by archlab »

Hiya,
I upgraded my entire Electrical Charging & Ignition system for 2 '67 & '68 Barracudas plus my '69 D100. I did not need to replace the coil. For what I did, these are some pretty helpful links below:

a) Wiring Diagram http://www.mrmopar.com/1970DodgeTruck/w ... e-Full.png
b) MAD Electrical Guide: http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical ... uges.shtml
c) AllPar Discussion & Guide to Electrical Upgrades:http://www.allpar.com/history/mopar/electrical.html

Hope this stuff helps, I replaced the charging system with a later model Alternator & Voltage Regulator setup (used an alternator from a 1980's V8 on one & I think that I used an Alternator from a 2000's model Intrepid- yes, it was a Nippondenso - 90amp or so). I recommend the Nippondenso, as (at the time) the price was better & it fit fine. Also, I can definitely tell you guys that these were excellent improvements which eliminated any charging problems & got the power suitable for all my needs.

BTW, I highly recommend checking your wiring, esp. the Bulkhead COnnector (see Items b & c above). That is a real (if not THE) major electrical problem on Mopars in general.

Best to your upgrades, you'll be glad you did them.

GiS
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Re: Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

Post by GiS »

Thank you ALL for your help here! Let me get back to you with some more info, and of course a few more questions :lol:

Just to catch everyone up, I've got the Electronic Ignition installed (Proform Kit) and it seems to be working! It fired up almost instantly when I first turned it over! :) ... It appears that I have it wired in and working properly,

1. pwadeventurer - I thought I had read somewhere that if a person were to UPGRADE their current/factory Ignition Coil with one that high a higher amperage/capacity/rating as well as a built in resistor, that you could then do away with the ballast resistor entirely? .. The rational was that the new coil could handle the continual and higher amount of current being passed through it. I am not trying to go out of my way to ditch the ballast BUT wondered if it was suggested that I upgrade my ignition coil, then perhaps I could simpligy my wiring a bit in the process. Have I misunderstood the role that the ballast resistor plays in the big picture?

Maybe I should do the Ignition Coil test and see what my current coil is putting out?? I have no idea if it's original or the condition it is in .. http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=81

2. Dual Field Alternator - While redoing and working on this trucks electrical system, I also wanted to sort out this dual field alternator that I have. Just this weekend I swapped over to an ELECTRONIC voltage regulator and have it wired in as per this link/diagram ... http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=78

HOWEVER - I am not so sure I am getting a good charge? My battery sits at 12.6V with the vehicle shut off, starts up just fine but reads ONLY 12.3V while running ... I thought maybe I had the fields on the Alternator wired backwires so as an experiment I swapped the two field connections, still only 12.3V at the battery while running.

Any ideas? I could re-check the ground on the voltage regulator itself but purposely went out of my way to scratch some paint of it during the inital install ...

Thanks so much for the help .. I'll check over my bulkhead connector and connections tonight!

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Re: Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

Post by swptln »

You definitely need the ballast resistor, or you will fry the coil for sure. Your ignition switch bypasses the ballast resistor during cranking to give you higher voltage to the coil, due to the starter draw, but when you release to the run position power goes back through the resistor.
Sounds like your alternator is not putting out, you should be at a minimum of 13volt when running.
If you ground your field - wire going to the regulator it should increase the voltage to the battery. If it does your regulator is bad, if not your alternator is your problem. Also, make sure the case of the regulator has a good ground. The electronic regulator uses the ground to keep the voltage constant vs using a bi-metal current contacts on the positive side of the earlier non electronic ones.
Mark D.

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1969 D100 Utiline
1993 D250 Club Cab

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Re: Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

Post by pwadventurer »

GiS wrote:
1. pwadeventurer - I thought I had read somewhere that if a person were to UPGRADE their current/factory Ignition Coil with one that high a higher amperage/capacity/rating as well as a built in resistor, that you could then do away with the ballast resistor entirely? .. The rational was that the new coil could handle the continual and higher amount of current being passed through it. I am not trying to go out of my way to ditch the ballast BUT wondered if it was suggested that I upgrade my ignition coil, then perhaps I could simpligy my wiring a bit in the process. Have I misunderstood the role that the ballast resistor plays in the big picture?
I didn't know about these coils, but they are out there. Very specific, http://shop.whiteperformance.com/MSD-BL ... R-8202.htm

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Re: Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

Post by wally426ci »

Does it go up when you throttle up? Mine idles at 11.5 and goes up to 13.5 while drivibg. Its been charging fine.

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Re: Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

Post by PwrWgnWalt »

Hi GIS,

See the "third topic" at my post on all thongs electrical:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=34977

Keep it stock, and wire it like shown in my post and you'll be fine.

Running voltage should not be over 14.3 (or very close), or you risk burning some small wires!
13.2 to 14.2 is a "normal" range.

Hope that helps!
-Walt

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Re: Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

Post by GiS »

Thank you all for the continued advice!

Unfortunately the Alt does NOT start charging with throttle or increased RPM, batt votage still remains a dismal 12.2 to 12.3V...

Walt - That's a GREAT POST! I am going to go home tonight and make sure that my wiring exactly matches your diagram, the truck starts and runs so I think I've got the Elec Ignition wired properly, but still struggle with the lack of charging.

Now I know juusssttt enough about electrical to be dangerous but did some more "poking" around last night, here is my update.
- Noticed that my "Alt Reg" fuse (20A) was blown .. I replaced this, turned the key to the on position and the fuse popped again instantly.
- Given this fuse keeps popping, I can't confirm that I have IGN power coming in to the Voltage Reg as I should per the wiring diagram
- I had also read about a way to quickly bypass the Voltage Reg to confirm the Alt is in fact working, what I read was to run a small jumper from the BATT terminal on the Alt to the Field terminal right beside it (I have two Field terminals, neither are marked positive or negative so I have been selecting the field based on it's physical location on the ALT). Much to my suprise, this small (12ga) jumper went up in smoke and burnt to a crisp :lol:

So I will continue to work away on this but wonder if the above helps point to anything specifically,

For what it's worth, my charging system is wired exactly as per this diagram:
Alt1.jpg

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Re: Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

Post by PwrWgnWalt »

Hi GiS;

First, recheck every wire involved in the charging circuit. Look for frayed/broken/exposed wire, and places where it could be grounding.

Sounds like one of these is the issue:

1) Short in the big black Alternator BATT line (read my post and pay attention to Bulkhead Connector #16 & #27; consider doing the mod on my 9th post)
2) Short in the Voltage Regulator line (could be at any of those wires coming to the Ballast Resistor, Ignition switch, or intermediate wires)
3) Bad Alternator or Voltage Regulator (did you have the alternator tested?) (usually, a bad voltage regulator shows up as waaaay too high charging voltage, 16 volts+)

Have a Voltmeter or a 12 volt test light (Harbor Freight or whatever)?
Ignition switch off; replace that fuse. Keep the ignition switch OFF.
Clip the (black/ground) wire to the negative battery post, and start poking with the other (sharp/red) end...
BATT on Alternator should make it light up, or read 12.x volts (Battery voltage).
Starter Relay, big terminal should be 12.x volts.
Keep poking around until something that should have voltage does not, or vice-versa. Sure sounds like a short (or maybe a very bad grounding issue).

Where does the Negative battery cable go to?

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Re: Electronic Ignition and Alternator question

Post by marklein »

I recently did some charging system upgrading. Was told by a friend who rebuilds starters and alternators for a living that the 12v wire feeding the regulator should come directly from the battery. He recommends feeding the regulator with direct battery voltage through a relay, so that the regulator sees true battery voltage, turn it on with switched 12v. On a 2 wire setup, feed the regulator and one side of the alternator with this wire. You can also buy an adjustable voltage regulator for the 2 wire type, they work great. I put a nippondenso 90 amp on my truck using an adjustable regulator, was running 14.5-15v with the regulator I had, too high, so the adjustable got me down to a safer 14v. Were it me, just rewire it, be quicker and gives you a chance to upgrade the wiring.

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