D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

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JLeather
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D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by JLeather »

Still working out the steering issues with my D200. This was a factory p/s truck, but I converted it to manual at least temporarily because the p/s is worn beyond repair. I ran into an issue, however. I bought a Moog DS653 draglink which is supposed to be correct for '61-'68 (it's the 13 3/4" link). I also got a 7 1/2" manual steering pitman arm from Bud Thorpe. When I put it all back together, however, the steering on the truck is wrong. For one thing, although the box has 6 1/2 turns lock-to-lock I'm only getting 5 1/4 turns between the steering stops on the axle (which are adjusted until the tires just barely don't rub the frame). Also, when the steering box is centered the wheels are not straight ahead, they point to the right a good ~5 degrees. You have to turn the box about 3/8 of a turn left to make the wheels go straight. At that point I end up with 2 1/4 turns to the left before I hit the stop, and 3 turns to the right.

Bottom line seems to be that something is wrong in the relationship between the box, pitman arm, draglink, and the steering arm on the left spindle (the curved one that connects the draglink to the left spindle). That or I put something back together wrong when I did the kingpins and leafspring bushings. Is it possible that being a D200 and/or a factory p/s truck that the steering arm attached to the spindle is different? If the steering arm were effectively 'shorter' (i.e. the attachment for the draglink were closer to the spindle axis of rotation) it would cause the same issues I'm seeing in my truck. For reference, my left side steering arm is about 9 1/2" from the backside of the spindle to the center of the draglink hole. Is it possible I incorrectly assembled the spindles in some way that could cause this? It seems unlikely this arm is bent, it shows no signs of impact and it's well protected from impact and very strong.

I could get a longer draglink to center the wheels, but that still wouldn't fix the fact that I'm losing 1 1/4 turns of steering box potential. The other common draglink for these trucks (Moog DS768) is 14 1/2" long and based on my measuring that would be longer than I'd need to center the wheels and would just push them to the other side of straight. Bud has a shorter pitman arm (6 1/4") that I think may do the trick, but I was wondering if anyone else out there has a manual steering D200 that uses a shorter pitman arm?

Also, I thought that the pitman arm should be at ~6:00 position when the box is centered. Mine, when the box is centered, is at ~5:00 (points a bit towards the rear of the truck). Is everyone's steering box like that?

Side note - I'm also wondering if this might be related to why some people have trouble with the CPP power steering kit. If some trucks use a shorter pitman arm for manual steering, they must have effectively a shorter steering arm as well (to preserve the overall travel relationship). If the CPP kit only comes with one length pitman arm, and is designed for trucks that originally had a 7 1/2" pitman, putting it on a truck that was designed for a shorter pitman reduces the mechanical advantage? If so, I'd like to figure out where else in the steering my truck is different (steering arm length perhaps?) and change that as well when I do a p/s conversion later.

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by soopernaut »

Power steering trucks use a different arm. So do crew cab trucks. I didn't check any of the other parts.

Unfortunately some of the pages are missing or are in the wrong spot. You can see the last 2 items on this page have a different part number. The rest of the steering arms seem to be missing from the catalog.
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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by JLeather »

Interesting. And that's referring to the steering arm bolted to the spindle, and not the pitman arm, correct?

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by JLeather »

I think that's referring to the pitman arm. The power steering pitman arm has a bend in it to clear something, but it's the same 7 1/2" length as the manual arm. The steering arm is listed in the front suspension section (2-05-4), and appears to be the same regardless of p/s or not (I'm finally getting the hang of this online parts book). That leaves me with something installed wrong, or something substantially out of adjustment somewhere?

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by PwrWgnDrvr »

Why do u assume the steering box lock to lock is an exact match to the wheel stop lock to lock?

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by JLeather »

PwrWgnDrvr wrote:Why do u assume the steering box lock to lock is an exact match to the wheel stop lock to lock?
I don't assume it should match exactly at the stops, but the center of the steering box travel is the only place where it has 0-lash and that should correspond to when the truck's wheels are pointing straight or else it'll wander (which my truck does).

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by Hobcobble »

Is your left steering arm embossed with PN# 1938-491?
What size tires are you using?

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by PwrWgnDrvr »

Ive torn down a couple boxes in the past and I can't visualize what would define "0 lash at the center of travel". Best I recall it is a continuous worm gear, cross shaft with recirculating balls and there is nothing that defines "center".
Seems the only way to adjust anything is by changing the geometry with an adjustable drag link or different steering arm. Or put the pitman arm on different teeth if that's possible.
How about lining it up for straight and moving the steering wheel on the column?

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by JLeather »

Hobcobble wrote:Is your left steering arm embossed with PN# 1938-491?
What size tires are you using?

John
I'll have to check on the arm p/n. Do you happen to know where on the arm it's marked? Tires are 235/85R16's I believe. A bit taller than stock, but not really overly large in diameter or width.

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by JLeather »

PwrWgnDrvr wrote:Ive torn down a couple boxes in the past and I can't visualize what would define "0 lash at the center of travel". Best I recall it is a continuous worm gear, cross shaft with recirculating balls and there is nothing that defines "center".
Seems the only way to adjust anything is by changing the geometry with an adjustable drag link or different steering arm. Or put the pitman arm on different teeth if that's possible.
How about lining it up for straight and moving the steering wheel on the column?
The 0-lash is between the sector shaft gear and the teeth on the ballnut. I don't know if it's something intentional in the way they cut them, or just a necessary byproduct of that type of gear meshing? If you turn the input shaft on the box with your fingers you'll feel it get just a little snug right at the center of travel. That's also the only place you check input torque during adjustment, because if you accidentally do the input torque adjustment anywhere besides center it'll bind at the center point.

What I really need is a pitman arm that's a bit shorter than 7 1/2", but not as short as a W100 (6 1/4"). Something like 6 3/4". It's just a Saginaw box, maybe someone sells a flat arm that can be drilled wherever you want? Or maybe I can find an arm from a different truck than ran a Saginaw box that I can just remachine the taper? I may try the 6 1/4" W100 arm anyway, but I did some steering calculations and I think that will put me a little shy of full axle lock-to-lock steering (which might not bother me).

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by JLeather »

One crazy thought, currently the Dodge pitman arm will only fit one way, but if I machined one more spline (or even just clearance for one spine) I could clock it one spline farther forward. That might be too far and kick me to the other side of the center, I'll have to do some measuring.

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by PwrWgnDrvr »

How about an adjustable drag link?

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by JLeather »

It would fix the centering, yes. I was thinking maybe with a shorter pitman arm I could also kill two birds with one stone and make the truck drive a little easier :Thumbsup

Is there an adjustable draglink that has Dodge tapers? I know I've seen some people using one from a Jeep or something.

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by Hobcobble »

JLeather wrote:One crazy thought, currently the Dodge pitman arm will only fit one way, but if I machined one more spline (or even just clearance for one spine) I could clock it one spline farther forward. That might be too far and kick me to the other side of the center, I'll have to do some measuring.
Not sure if the cross bolt would slide through the recess in the
steering box shaft? :thinking
John

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by Jim100 »

There are dodge adjustable draglinks available. Not inexpensive but worth it if one would fix your problem.

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by JLeather »

Well, the W100 pitman arm didn't work. The length actually seemed good in terms of still giving me enough travel plus a little extra leverage. The issue is that it seems that the W100 pitman arm isn't just shorter, it's also clocked about 5-8* clockwise compared to the D200 arm. In the pics below the steering box remained in the same position and the arms were swapped in for the photos. You can see the D200 manual arm and the D200 p/s arm are identical, and the W100 arm is forward a good 3/8". Clocked forward or shorter separately would have put me about right, but together they kick the wheels to the other side of neutral.

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It also looked like maybe the front axle was forward a bit, based on the wheel wells, but the truck wheelbase measures 128" from the rear axle to the front which is correct so I guess this is how they all look?

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by JLeather »

Jim100 wrote:There are dodge adjustable draglinks available. Not inexpensive but worth it if one would fix your problem.
I'd probably be further ahead to remachine the steering arms for Chevy or Jeep tapers, but do you have a source for adjustable Dodge links I can compare prices with?

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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by Hobcobble »

You've probably addressed this already....
Seeing as this is a factory power assist truck, there are
shims/wedges installed in the front axle. You've removed
this for your temporary manual conversion, correct? :thinking
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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by Jim100 »

Just google "dodge adjustable drag link" and they will pop up. Also amazon, ebay. Summit and or skyjacker.
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Re: D200 different pitman, draglink, or steering arm?

Post by JLeather »

Hobcobble wrote:You've probably addressed this already....
Seeing as this is a factory power assist truck, there are
shims/wedges installed in the front axle. You've removed
this for your temporary manual conversion, correct? :thinking
John
Strangely enough there were no wedges when I pulled the axle off. I have also checked the caster and it's right around 1.5-2.0 degrees, which would be low for a p/s truck, so I assume it used to have shims at some point? In 51 years anything could have happened.

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