Lots of Questions

Suspension, Brakes, Tires, Wheels etc..

Lots of Questions

Postby zmandan » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:19 pm

Well, I finally got the floors replaced on my '66 D200 Crew Cab (no more Fred Flinstone) so I'm moving on.

Yesterday I purchased a Dana 44 front end and the matching Dana 60 rear. Wasn't 100% sure what they came from until I checked the numbers this evening - all I knew was they were pre '76 since the front brakes are drum... turns out they are from a 71 1/2 to 74 model. To save rewriting that I'm just going to call them 1974! Now I'm wondering what all I'll have to do/change to install them.

Obviously I'm switching from a tie rod behind the axle to one in front. Will - how will the power assist steering (factory) work since the tie rod will now be moving in the opposite direction, or am I out of luck keeping that?

What steering arm (the one on the wheel) can I use. Will the 74 work? What about my pitman arm and drag link? (again, currently power assisted)

Is there I difference in the front springs for 2WD vs. 4WD. I know the rear has the lift block...otherwise are the rear springs the same?

Interestingly the data I find says the 44 (603412-2) is a 4.09 gear ratio and the 60 (603236-2) is a 4.10 gear ratio. Am I wrong about these matching? Which brings me to another question... my current Dana 60 rear is a 4.10 Trac loc (or whatever the correct name is) and the 74 is not. Can I swap the Trac loc in to the 74 diff so that I keep the slip lock but get rear drums that can still be found? (at least I hope they can)

Need to figure out a T case to use with the NP 435 trans... to keep it simple I'm thinking of going with an NP201. Anyone got a decent spare laying around? (I have seen some interesting things on the Novak site but it's aimed toward jeeps)

I'll stop there for now. BTW I have read a ton on here on this subject, but as many have said, there are lots of ways to do this. So far I have not found the answers to these specific questions.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Dan
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby Hobcobble » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:55 am

Without some in depth modifications, you're S.O.L. on that power assist steering.
You can retain the Saginaw steering box but will need to figure out the link/arm
issue, seeing as you're using a post-Sweptline D44.

Is the D44 you have a closed knuckle model? If not, the steering arm is most
likely not set up for the factory W Series drag link and pitman arm. You'll need
to come up with a solution there as well. [bit of duplicate information from paragraph 1]

The D series pitman arm and drag link are both different than the W Series arm & link.

The front '61-'68 W series [100/200] spring pack is different than the D series.
I believe there are more [2?] main springs as well as some small ~5" pieces that
connect to the bottom of the spring pack. You'll need to add these in to your
current pack to keep the front axle at the proper height. Spring hardware can
be purchased from:
http://www.espo.com

For the t-case, I'd look for a NP201. You'll need the t-case cross member as
well as the frame bracket that holds the twin sticks. The support cross member
behind your tail shaft will need to come out. You'll need the short shaft and the
two main drive shafts. The best case scenario, IMHO, would be to find a W
Series parts truck. :idea :2cents

There's a likelihood that the axles you have will come with the smaller yokes.
The NP 201 yokes [factory] are larger. You have the option of getting larger
axle yokes to match... or installing a "wobble joint" with the two different
bearing cup diameters needed. All of the W100/200 ['61-'68] trucks I've
seen, owned and parted out over the years have had the large axle and
t-case yokes.

You'll need the longer rear rubber brake hose that Ws use. You'll likely
need the longer W series parking brake cables as well. I'm assuming
your D200 has the rear axle parking brake set up?? ....

I'm in the process of doing just this....
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=41123

Perhaps others will chime in here and add their :2cents ?

John
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby zmandan » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:26 pm

John, thanks so much for the info. I know a parts truck would be the easiest route but I don't have a suitable location to dissect such. I also got a VERY good deal on these axles. I will check out the "Springs and Things" link

After talking to Bud, I plan to keep my Dana 60 rear but may well go ahead and swap out my brakes for the newer stuff from the 74 axle.

I'm going to investigate the steering assist situation. I know now that it was not available on the W model but things like that don't stop me from at least trying. Looks can be deceiving, but it appears to me it's a matter of fabricating a mounting bracket to go on the axle tube, finding a way to retain the shuttle valve drag link, and reversing the lines to the ram on the valve. I'm sure that's an over simplification but it's worth a try!

I believe my next step is to locate some springs that will work. In reality I feel I need to change them all. I see here are a couple of places that offer lift kits and that might be a possibility... if I can find rear springs. It seems most just include front springs and a taller block to lift the rear. Once I work that out, I can mount the front axle and see what I need to locate for the steering arm, drag link, and Pitman arm.

On a different note, is there a 5 speed trans/transfer case that will bolt to the poly? I realize those are probably later model and thus probably won't have a passenger side drop, but it never hurts to ask!

Sorry I tend to get wordy but I just like to make things as clear as possible.

Thanks,
Dan
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby Hobcobble » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:44 am

Dan,
I'm not sure on the 5spd tranny & married t-case? More than likely, it would have
a fine 23 spline input shaft and you need the coarse 10 spline type for the hydraulic
clutch set up. The next question would be whether or not the 5spd tranny would have
the correct bolt pattern and shaft depth to mate with the hydraulic clutch type bell
housing. Maybe someone [Paging Mr. Cartwright! :joker ] can fill in the blanks
on newer tranny options, swapping possibilities for coarse vs fine input shafts, etc..

With regards, to the steering assist, I certainly wouldn't stand in one's way on trying
to adapt it. I would, however, say that even from the factory, these set-ups were
nothing to write home about. They were "sensitive" and finicky. Over the years, I've
read a lot of refurbishment articles and its my opinion that its a toss up as to
whether or not they're worth all the cost versus what you actually gain. I've never
had any problems steering my W200s. They have good functioning steering boxes
and the three spoke larger diameter steering wheels. I don't run oversize tires
on my trucks either. :2cents :Thumbsup Some here have come up with a decent
cross-over steering system .... maybe worth investigating??

John
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby zmandan » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:52 pm

Thanks again, the transmission is not deal breaker, not if it takes a ton of work - I've just always liked more! 4 gears... why not 5?

On the steering, since I already have it, and it seems to be working well, I don't feel like I have much to lose. I will admit it really reduces road feel and seems pretty sensitive but overall having driven one without it, my preference would be to have it. Besides, just think of the thrill of victory if I succeed! :clap :dance

Thanks
Dan
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby PwrWgnDrvr » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:49 pm

Eat more spinach......u won't need power steering. :salut
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby wally426ci » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:58 am

Ball bearing Kingpins are enough I have to say. :salut
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby dodgeboykim » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:11 pm

I did a power steering conversion on my 66 W 100 22 years ago. Used a 76,77 Power Wagon steering box, Modified GM 4X4 Drag link.Box mounted forward of axle under battery box. Custom shaft hooked to stock steering column. Upper Shock mount unbolted from forward mounting point and bolted into existing rearward mounting hols. Lower Axle shock mounts cut off and re welded onto rear side of axle. It does need a shorter pitman arm than one on truck currently. Wasn't that difficult to do actually.
My truck is younger than me.
66 W100. 70 D 500 with 69 Hiab Speed Loader. 96 Ram 3500 Club Cab Cummin's 5 spd. 97 Ram 1500 Club Cab 5.9 gas auto. 83 W200 L/B 360 auto on propane.
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby zmandan » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:50 pm

Well I realized the other evening that my front driver's side tire is rubbing the tie rod end and it has worn a groove in the tire. Passenger side is touching but not as bad. That leaves the truck "grounded" until I can sort that out. The tires were pretty much weather cracked and scary so that's no issue... but... I was not planning on new wheels. I guess PO changed them to get rid of the split rims but these must have the wrong offset (need to measure to be sure). Present tires are 235/85 -16. Should I keep these wheels and go to a narrower tire? Really not too keen on spacers! :shame

If I do change out the wheels I want something stock looking, so I'm leaning toward the Wheel Vintques wvi-82-670804 from Summit Racing. :study Has anybody used these and have any input? They're 16x8 and have 4" backspace which will still be close but looks like it might work looking at the proposed Dana 44 anyway.

Since I have some time till I figure out the wheel/tire issue, I started working on the Dana rear end and removing the brakes in preparation for swapping them to my rear end since it has the Powr-Lok unit. My surprise is that the drum brakes are 12 x 3". :thinking While that is a good thing, I'm finding that most of the parts listings are either for 2 1/2 wide, or they don't say. Anyone know what model would have come with the wider brakes? The BOM puts the axle as a 71-1/2 to 75... but that doesn't mean someone hasn't done what I'm doing and done some swapping!!

Any input from you knowledgeable people?

Thanks in advance!!!
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby dodgeboykim » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:31 pm

Think you might want to measure the shoes. Drums may be wider than shoes. :thinking :thinking
My truck is younger than me.
66 W100. 70 D 500 with 69 Hiab Speed Loader. 96 Ram 3500 Club Cab Cummin's 5 spd. 97 Ram 1500 Club Cab 5.9 gas auto. 83 W200 L/B 360 auto on propane.
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby zmandan » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:35 am

That is the measurement of the shoes. Measured them a couple of times to be sure I wasn't dreaming...
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby dodgeboykim » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:17 pm

zmandan wrote:That is the measurement of the shoes. Measured them a couple of times to be sure I wasn't dreaming...


Possibly you have a 70's or 80's rear axle in the truck. Start looking up brake shoe parts for those. Look for stamped information in axle tube to narrow down build date of it. :thinking :thinking
My truck is younger than me.
66 W100. 70 D 500 with 69 Hiab Speed Loader. 96 Ram 3500 Club Cab Cummin's 5 spd. 97 Ram 1500 Club Cab 5.9 gas auto. 83 W200 L/B 360 auto on propane.
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby zmandan » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:06 pm

This is not the axle currently in the truck. I bought a set and am taking the later model ( and now
I find larger) rear brakes to put on my 66 axle with posi lock. I'm trying to get away from the difficult to find drums.

The BOM on the donor axle is 603236-2. Info I find indicates that is a 71 1/2 to 75 W200 axle. I have found shoes that look correct from several sources but am not having success with drums. Several places indicate both 2 1/2 and 3 inch were available but most drums that are for 3" brakes have a "hat" on the drum and mine are flat.
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby zmandan » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:00 pm

Did some more checking this evening and on the outside of the brake drums I see "BUDD" at one point, and 180° around, 95861. These are molded into the casting. I did a quick search and didn't really find anything. I'll do more but wanted to toss this out in case it sparks a thought or memory for anyone.
Last edited by zmandan on Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby powerwagon54 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:44 pm

what drums are you referring to as being hard to find?
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby zmandan » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:16 am

I'm still referring to the original drums. I know you have them available so they can be had, contrary to what I originally thought. I'm just researching all the options. :study
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby zmandan » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:15 am

Back again, scored an NP 435 with a married NP 205 from an 86 truck. I see the input shaft has more splines ( haven’t counted qty) so I’m guessing what I’ll need to do is change my clutch and use a compatible disc. Will I have clearance issues with the floor?

Sorry for the long time between posts... This is a “pay as you go” project! Have to keep my wife happy!

(I’m dying inside cause I don’t have the $$$ to buy a low mileage A318 w 4 BBL manifold I found)
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby dodgeboykim » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:50 pm

zmandan wrote:Back again, scored an NP 435 with a married NP 205 from an 86 truck. I see the input shaft has more splines ( haven’t counted qty) so I’m guessing what I’ll need to do is change my clutch and use a compatible disc. Will I have clearance issues with the floor?

Sorry for the long time between posts... This is a “pay as you go” project! Have to keep my wife happy!

(I’m dying inside cause I don’t have the $$$ to buy a low mileage A318 w 4 BBL manifold I found)



Your 86 435 trans will not work with 66 hydraulic bell housing. I understand input length is different. Not sure if it can be modified to work. :thinking :thinking
My truck is younger than me.
66 W100. 70 D 500 with 69 Hiab Speed Loader. 96 Ram 3500 Club Cab Cummin's 5 spd. 97 Ram 1500 Club Cab 5.9 gas auto. 83 W200 L/B 360 auto on propane.
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby Hobcobble » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:14 pm

Your '86 NP435 probably has a 23 spline input shaft. You need a '61-'68
Tranny for the hydraulic clutch set up. It isn't as easy as using a different
clutch disc. Mechanical and hydraulic components don't mix. I'm not sure
if you can change that 23 spline input shaft for a 10 spline or not?? Maybe
someone else can chime in. :2cents :study
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Re: Lots of Questions

Postby zmandan » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:22 pm

I guess the question now is ... Can I find an input shaft that I can put in the 86 trans to work with my bellhousing. My luck is that my 66 input shaft will not work in the 86 trans... bearing type, ratio etc., etc., etc. And from what I understand, the rear of the 66 trans does not have the correct bolt pattern for the TC adaptor to bolt up (and I’m sure that would require a different output shaft!!!!!!!)

I guess the admonishment I got in a PM earlier to, “just get the right parts” is justified.

My hope with this setup was to eliminate a drive shaft and two u joints! But it sounds like it may be more like Pandora’s box :banghead

Thanks for the input

Anyone got any good news? :pale

Maybe 2WD ain’t so bad!

Dan
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