Bump Steer/ how ford fixed the problem

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MountainMoparRobin
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Bump Steer/ how ford fixed the problem

Post by MountainMoparRobin »

we're not the only ones who have encountered this, posting what ford owners did to fix the problem (just what I said) :Thumbsup STEERING
Since original Ford steering boxes usually wore out long before the rest of the car, rodders in the '40s and '50s resorted to using '40 Ford boxes, and then later F-100 units as replacements, which were basically more heavy-duty versions of the system already in place. With a dropped axle, split wishbones, and a stock or F-100 steering box in place, the rod that runs from the pitman arm to the spindle (called a drag link) was forced to operate at an unusual angle due to the geometry change. What would happen is that, as the frontend went up and down, it pulled the steering rod back and forth along with the rest of the suspension, causing the wheels to turn on their own, which is called bumpsteer. Essentially, chassis flex could make the wheels turn without any driver input on the steering wheel. This problem became even worse in the late '60s, when Mustang steering boxes began to replace F-100 units. Due to the way they were designed, the Mustang boxes needed to be mounted with the pitman arm pointing up rather than down like a stock box, so the drag link became very short. The shortened drag link further accentuated the bumpsteer problem.

the link for more reading:http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/tec ... index.html

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Post by motomatt383 »

have we seen the future "of sweptline sterring"

Image


this is somthing to look into! it would definetley cure the bumpsteer. my Dad tried to explain somthing like this to me 2 yrs ago, and like a DUMASS! i didn't get it. now i know what he was trying to explain.DOH!

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Post by fosh69 »

motomatt383, isn't that called 'crossover steering'? that is very popular on lifted 4x4's. I'm curious to know how that would work on a lowered truck...

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bumpsteer

Post by MountainMoparRobin »

fosh69
yes that is cross steer system, which with converting to a power steering box from the 80's mounted infront of the axle, is set up almost exact way. So with this info and possibly adding a pan handle bar, flipping the straight axle, changing to Mopar powersteering (infront of straight axle) one could drop the front 5-6" and not have bumpsteer :Thumbsup

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Post by 66patrick »

A Panhard bar is what keeps the rear axle centered on a coil-spring suspension, usually. The 1/2-ton GM trucks use this on their rear suspensions, as do NASCAR race cars (sometimes called a "track bar"). If this bar breaks or if the bushings are excessively worn, you'll get a lot of rear sway and/or crabbing. The Ford setup on the front uses a similar bar, as shown in the diagram. To make this effective, you'll have to replace all of the front spring bushings and ensure the springs are still good to go. Otherwise, it's a wasted effort.
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cross steering

Post by funkyjbp »

I have been contemplating cross-steeering on my 71. It looks possible. A popular box in the street rod world is the late 70s GM A body, (monte Carlo, gran Prix, etc) starting in 78. It is a saginaw unit so it's not too far from Moparland. You would have to stabilize or center the axle with a panhard bar as mentioned. If you do not, the torque of the cross-steer will push and pull at the weakest links which would be the busings. If you do not, as Patrick said, it would be a wasted effort. You woud need to relocate everything to the front of the axle which should be a simple switch of the steering arms. The ackerman geometry should stay the same if you do not change the arms any. A 72-93 box up front may tough to package due to crossmember clearance. It looks like a good swap option to me. I can get my axle dropped 3-5 inches in Oklahoma City, http://www.droppedaxles.com he has never done a sweptline but i spoke with him in-person and looked at his other axles and his work looks like quality products. I just don't knwo if i want to spend the $ for a dropped axle, fabricated power steering nad then disc brakes. An F-body swap looks like the cheapest but not the easiest conversion. I'll take pics when i commit. later, JP in KS.

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ford

Post by MountainMoparRobin »

Patrick66
I would hope one would keep those in good shape, I do keep mine, for I drive mine, and have seen the 100+ mph many times and will many times to go, bushings are not something to consider unless you don't drive the truck and haven't replaced the parts in a few decades, at the same time I'm lookin at upgrading also to the roller bearing tie rod ends.
funkyjpb
I'm thinkin the same, I can't believe dropin should cost so much, I'm lookin at the flip, and adding the power steering unit from an early 80's truck, I posted pictures in the other selection, after reading what you posted, I'm wondering why your friends had problems, the box I'm lookin at sits in a location on the 83 that is within the turn radious of the tire however the tire on my 83 doesn't hit it and I have tall tires???? and at a brief fast look it almost looks like the design of the steering arm on the 70 could almost bolt directtly to the pitman arm of the 83, although the leaf springs and the sway bar may be in the way, may have to get rid of the leafs, and use a arm like on the straight axle Jeeps :study or mount the steering box in closer to the straight axle :idea

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Post by funkyjbp »

Mountain, the guys that did said that the longer you could make the draglink, the better the steeering response would be (less chance for bump steer). the machinist/welder who did it first is a Mopar guru locally and he's been at it for 40 plus yrs. he's in his late 50s. they all love the set up and i've driven the 65 one ton 4X4. it has 20 inch steel wheels and military 44 " radials on it and it drives damn good on and off the road. i thought about trying a GM A body saginaw outside of the frame like your are talking about. it is basically the same box as 72-93 trucks but about 2/3 of the size. I've been into street rods all my life (39 yrs) and the boxes appear to have a good track record so far. haven't seen one in a push/pull set up like our trucks but in theory, it should work. good luck, take pics! JP.

ps, with flip, you can get at 2-3 inches of drop and with a flatter spring, maybe another 2 inches. I get concerned about oil pan clearance and having to notch the frame. as long as the pan is clear, a good fabricator can notch and reinforce the frame. later, JP.

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Post by funkyjbp »

Mountain, my friends all wwere able to use the stock steering arm from the spindle. they did have to relocate the shock to behind the axle which is simple to do. all three trucks have the box as far forward ontheir frames as they could go. they were creative in making their own draglinks though. Simple fab work welding pieces together.

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fornt

Post by MountainMoparRobin »

won't have to notch the frame, the total drop though does come to 5", rear sump oil pan may need some clearance though, however, may have to move the rear drag link to go across from passenger side rear to driver side front which could clear up some space for the drop :Thumbsup

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Re:

Post by Ruckus »

66patrick wrote:A Panhard bar is what keeps the rear axle centered on a coil-spring suspension, usually. The 1/2-ton GM trucks use this on their rear suspensions, as do NASCAR race cars (sometimes called a "track bar"). If this bar breaks or if the bushings are excessively worn, you'll get a lot of rear sway and/or crabbing. The Ford setup on the front uses a similar bar, as shown in the diagram. To make this effective, you'll have to replace all of the front spring bushings and ensure the springs are still good to go. Otherwise, it's a wasted effort.
Panhard rods are ONLY for use in coil spring suspensions which have no lateral support. As the suspension droops, it actually arcs off to the side a bit due to the rod. If the drag link is the same length and position as the panhard rod then no bumpsteer. You CANNOT put a panhard rod on a leaf suspension or they will fight each other since the leaf springs want to droop strait down and the panhard rod is swinging in an arc.

Tons of hard core 4x4 and racing folks use crossover steering, as do some newer trucks, so I am not sure why this would somehow put too much force on the bushings???

My 68 W200 has a Saginaw "76" box and a 3/4 crossover. They welded a joint onto the tie rod just inside of the passenger spring. I am contemplating going to a full crossover if I swap in an open knuckle axle...
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Re: Bump Steer/ how ford fixed the problem

Post by digdoug »

Ruckus,
Could you post a pic. of your steering box.

Doug

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Re: Bump Steer/ how ford fixed the problem

Post by Ruckus »

digdoug wrote:Ruckus,
Could you post a pic. of your steering box.

Doug
Sure, but I will be travelling all next week, so please be patient...
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Re: Bump Steer/ how ford fixed the problem

Post by MountainMoparRobin »

Ruckus that would be in the rear, the rodders use the panard bar on the front along with 1 spring for the cross over steering
the photo would be with leaf springs that was posted, for the front

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Re: Bump Steer/ how ford fixed the problem

Post by Oldguy »

We use panhard bars on our dirt track racers with leaf springs and have for 30 or so years. They limit body roll and help plant the right rear and make the suspension more tunable. Don't see why they wouldn't work on on the straight axle front ends. Seems like it would pretty much take care of the major part of bump steer. Also, seems like it would be a necessity on a coil spring set up to locate the rear in relatioship to the frame. On our coil spring cars we also use a sliding bar link which locks up under acceleration. Not that we need that for our trucks, just saying! LOL
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Re: Bump Steer/ how ford fixed the problem

Post by MountainMoparRobin »

Actually thanks for the information, Oldguy that helped more than you know, I'm going to stiffin up the suspension after droping it in the front about 5", I'm rolling around information in my head for when I do the powersteering swap, and drop, possible Disc upgrade all at the same time I will also stiffin the suspension for cornering, yes I'm going to do more than 1/4 driving, and I want to go full throttle through the corners, with no body lean???? :idea

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Re: Bump Steer/ how ford fixed the problem

Post by devilbrad »

I just finished my Tallzag disc swap, reading this, and adding stuff up in my head. After the discs, new kingpins, bushings, steering box, fabbing all the crossover steering, panhard, etc etc etc.............it almost seems more economical and less fab work to just swap in a Fatman IFS, LOL But I like your guys thinking. Have any of you considered ditching the leaf springs and running a 4 bar/coilover setup in the front like they do on 32 Ford street rods??????? That would look pretty damn trick.

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Re: Bump Steer/ how ford fixed the problem

Post by MountainMoparRobin »

Yes,
funny you mentioned that for while I was involved in the research I thought the exact same thing, I will get most of the parts from a very inexpensive PullNSave yard here, will be keeping price well under $600.00 That very nice kit from Fatman is $1600-2000 so I'll have money left over, not that I have it, but escpeicilly after seeing Fosh69's General on Sunday I now have confirmed some of the improvements :Thumbsup

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Re: Bump Steer/ how ford fixed the problem

Post by Ruckus »

If you want a suspension that doesn't move, then by all means put a panhard rod on leaf springs. If your suspension is only flexing an inch or two and the rod is completely horizontal, then sideways movement under hard cornering will be eliminated. Also, take note that circle track racers are only turning one direction and want their suspension to lock up when cornering under power. This will only stop bump steer if your drag link is exactly the same length and angle as the panhard rod. To eliminate bump steer the drag link must stay still as the suspension moves up and down. The panhard rod does not eliminate bumb steer in the ford bronco suspension, it locates the axle laterally. It is the fact that they made the drag link similar in length and angle to the track bar that reduces bump steer. I have driven the old ford bronco, and I can attest that they still had bump steer...
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Re: Bump Steer/ how ford fixed the problem

Post by Ruckus »

Here is an attempt at posting my steering pic...
Image
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