Noob Membery

[Wildergarten]

Hi,

New here.

I've had a '69 W200 for about 28 years. I bought it because we had just bought land in the Santa Cruz Mountains above Silicon Valley and I needed a truck. This one had a PTO-driven dump bed and it was cheap ($1500) because just about everything in the body was rotted out. It had been the dump truck for a graveyard in Colma (why it has a stiff suspension) not far from a salt-water Bay.

We were doing the classic "how to buy a half-million dollar house with no money down" routine. So the first order of business while I was getting permits from the People's Republic of Santa Cruz County was to make the truck work. It needed some lifters, lapped a couple of valves, and swapped out the cab with one I'd bought in the wrecking yard. Hung the cab in a tree, dropped off the flatbed I'd bought with it, and did the switcheroo with nothing more than gravity and friction.

After the house was built, Homer got the flat bed, racks (front too), a set of side boards for leaves, a pressurized watering tank with a compressor, a 275 gallon tote tank with a pump for fire and compaction jobs, etc. Blew out the back window and didn't replace it. The puppy had eaten the seat and even tried to steal the truck once (thinks it's hers).

So I've used the hell out of this truck for nearly 30 years doing our unique land restoration project (wildergarten.org) involving some rather scary events of some note. Today, this truck is tired: Body's shot, springs are unhappy, frame is bent, oil pressure is low, doors don't open and close easily, jackshaft vibrates, brakes are scary, rear axle pinion is shakey, etc. Then I center punched the radiator with a branch and the verdict was in. The bed is still good, t-case, trans, and so are the hydraulics. But it's time for another truck. That's why I'm here.

Just bought a "new" 68 with a 383, tight frame, nice interior, only 90K miles, and an unbelievably straight but somewhat rusted body. Gonna do the swap with the bed and upgrade just about everything. Given that most of the hairy projects on the land are done, I'm looking to make a nice working truck (not a show-restoration).

The big deal about this beast is that the PTO has output shafts front and rear. The front one drives a 4T Ramsey winch and I'm not at all impressed with the installation. The rear PTO output is available to run the hydraulics for the dump flatbed. I'd like to post photos, but I would like to know the maximum allowable size.

As to the skin cancer, most of what the new truck needs is still sound on the old one. So it's welded patch city here for a while. Beyond the body, the goals begin with the front axle. By the time it has a winch, front racks, the flat bed, side boxes and an extra fuel tank, the front axle load is well beyond the 3,000# rating. As we all know, the factory drum brackes suck. So I want to go disc, and it looks like the Chevy is the better fit for me because I'm adding a side fuel tank from an Isuzu NPR under the flat bed. That means I need that extra inch of flange-to-flange width to produce enough stance from the frame to be legal per Fedgov standards for non-side tanks (49 CFR 393.67 - Liquid fuel tanks). By the time I'm done with the layout, I'll have a set of CAMs for cutting the steel for hanging the tank/hydraulic pump combo if anybody is interested.

Anyway, I do have questions about this axle swap, particularly about making the spring perches work. Found the Pirate4X4 page with all that incredible data. So if somebody would let me know where to post the questions and how big the photos can be, I'd be happy to start asking!

Thanks,

Mark

[soopernaut]

The limit for photo size is 256KiB.

[Jim100]

You are looking to swap in a chevy disc brake dana 60 or 44?

[Wildergarten]

Because of all that extra equipment (big block, winch, front rack, 30 gallon gas tank, flatbed wall, etc.), after running the numbers on the load I'm thinking a Dana 60.
This place is WAY steep. Hence, one is usually winching uphill, yet another load on the axle. I'm thinking of adding jacks to the rack supports on the front bumper as a way to handle that. But either way, as long as I'm going to all the trouble of procuring and swapping an axle, I'd rather it could take the load without a sweat.

[Wildergarten]

The limit for photo size is 256KiB.

Thanks!
Here's the front axle with the winch shaft. It's definitely a small-knuckle Dana 44.
BTW, I'm not happy either with the amount of deflection under the bell-housing crossmember or the cutout in the front crossmember. Does anybody have a photo of the factory shaft routing?

[Wildergarten]

[PwrWgnDrvr]

Someone said once that chebbie axle won't work cuz pumpkin is on the wrong side....????

[dodgeboykim]

Someone said once that chebbie axle won't work cuz pumpkin is on the wrong side....????

Chebby and Dodge are on the same side. Dodge 93 and older. Chebby 86 and older.
Furd is on the drivers side and has been for a long time.

[soopernaut]

Someone said once that chebbie axle won't work cuz pumpkin is on the wrong side....????

Chebby and Dodge are on the same side. Dodge 93 and older. Chebby 86 and older.
Furd is on the drivers side and has been for a long time.

1987 was the last year for the solid axle on GM trucks, at least on 1/2 tons. The Blazer and 1 ton crew cabs continued in that body style through 1991. I know a few forum members have used them before.

[dodgeboykim]

Someone said once that chebbie axle won't work cuz pumpkin is on the wrong side....????

Chebby and Dodge are on the same side. Dodge 93 and older. Chebby 86 and older.
Furd is on the drivers side and has been for a long time.

1987 was the last year for the solid axle on GM trucks, at least on 1/2 tons. The Blazer and 1 ton crew cabs continued in that body style through 1991. I know a few forum members have used them before.

I was close enough with the years for GM.

[PwrWgnDrvr]

Chebby and Dodge are on the same side. Dodge 93 and older. Chebby 86 and older.
Furd is on the drivers side and has been for a long time.

1987 was the last year for the solid axle on GM trucks, at least on 1/2 tons. The Blazer and 1 ton crew cabs continued in that body style through 1991. I know a few forum members have used them before.

I was close enough with the years for GM.

I was close enough on the reject brands

[Wildergarten]

Chebby and Dodge are on the same side. Dodge 93 and older. Chebby 86 and older.

From Pirate 4X4:

Chevy Dana 60 versions were passenger side differential, regular rotation (low pinion) gears, open kingpin knuckles, 35 spline inner axles, 30 spline outer axles (stub shafts), internal style hubs, and disc brakes with 1.25" rotors. Unequal factors below are in bold. Preferred differences are in green and undesirable are red.

Chevy
79-87 K30 AND 88-91 K30 crew cab
1 ton 4wd kingpin pass. regular leaf 69.5" internal 35 / 30 32" 3" single piston 6

Dodge
79-91 D-600 & D-700
1 ton 4wd kingpin pass. regular leaf 67.5" external 35 / 30 32.5" 2.5" single piston 6

As I said above, the main reason I would have a preference for the Chevy is that I intend to install the external fuel tank under the flat bed and I need the extra 1" of extension to make it legal. There is an added bonus in that the Chevy does have thicker rotors.

The part I find concerning is the fact that most Dodge hubs are external (manual) lockout style, for which I have considerable preference over the Chevy internal hubs. I don't yet fully understand what is involved in making that coversion on the Chevy, although the Pirate 4X4 page does say it's doable with purchased parts. It looks like an involved process however for which some experience appears advisable. I'd really like to get a step-by-step from somebody who's done this one before going looking for an axle and other parts.
Thanks,
Mark

[Wildergarten]

I should add that I don't at all understand the differences between internal and external locking hubs. All I care about is that the wheels bolt on and I can engage/disengage them manually similar to the stock Dodge Warn hubs.

One other thing: There is a 1/2" difference between the centerline of the springs on the Chevy and Dodge trucks. So I would also like to know how to deal with that.

[PwrWgnDrvr]

Please explain what u are referencing that requires an extra inch to make the tank legal.
Been here in CA over 50 yrs, building and modifying these trucks and never heard that before. Have seen a million side frame mount tanks, gas, diesel and propane that are hella exposed, including every big rig on the highway.

[PwrWgnDrvr]

One other thing: There is a 1/2" difference between the centerline of the springs on the Chevy and Dodge trucks. So I would also like to know how to deal with that.

Use a Dodge axle

[PwrWgnDrvr]

Come over to WC and buy my W500, 383, NP540, locking hubs. All your problems solved!

[Wildergarten]

Please explain what u are referencing that requires an extra inch to make the tank legal.

In my first post above, I cited 49 CFR 393.67 - Liquid fuel tanks:

(2) A side-mounted fuel tank is a liquid fuel tank which-- (ii) If mounted on a truck, extends outboard of a line parallel to the longitudinal centerline of the truck and tangent to the outboard side of a front tire in a straight ahead position. In determining whether a fuel tank on a truck or truck tractor is side-mounted, the fill pipe is not considered a part of the tank.

Side mounted tanks require VERY stringent tests, such as dropping the tank full from 30 feet without bursting (as described elsewhere in the section). The Isuzu tank I have is not rated for that (says so on the tank).

Use a Dodge axle

I want to get that dangerous gas tank behind the driver's seat out of the cab. With a flatbed such as I have, there are two places to put it: behind the cab under the bed or where the spare tire is now which has complications with the dump bed. The only tank I can find that fits is from the Isuzu NPR. Nor am I going to go through all the BS of qualifying a custom tank for the DOT. Unless my measurements are in error (which is possible at this point), the width of said NPR gas tank on a truck with a Dodge axle would make my planned 30-gallon fuel tank illegal and therefore my truck would be uninsurable per the CFR cited above. All I need is for the tires to extend beyond the side wall of the tank. I can get the tire clearance two ways, changing out all the rims or buying a wider axle. One of those costs an extra grand. If I use the Chevy, I get the bonus of thicker (1.25") rotors. So I thought I'd ask about that.

Hence my questions.

[soopernaut]

Your quote from Pirate 4x4 says Dodge D600 and D700 but I guess they meant Dana 60 and Dana 70. D designates 2 wheel drive. Also there were no 600 or 700 trucks in any years from 1979-91. The years listed seem suspect to me as well. A 79 Dodge was full time 4wd and it appears the GM trucks were as well. In 1980 they were both part time 4wd. I think GM had an option in the late 70s where you could get part time 4wd.

I think you may need to research the difference between an internal and external hub further. Either type can have lockouts.

[Wildergarten]

Your quote from Pirate 4x4 says Dodge D600 and D700 but I guess they meant Dana 60 and Dana 70. D designates 2 wheel drive. Also there were no 600 or 700 trucks in any years from 1979-91. The years listed seem suspect to me as well.

I saw that too, but don't thnk it's referring to Dana 60 and Dana 70 as the whole page is about Dana 60 only. Makes it scary trying to figure out what to buy.

A 79 Dodge was full time 4wd and it appears the GM trucks were as well. In 1980 they were both part time 4wd. I think GM had an option in the late 70s where you could get part time 4wd.

Good info; thank you.

I think you may need to research the difference between an internal and external hub further. Either type can have lockouts.

Yup. Never seen an internal. Read a couple of descriptions and didn't get it without diagrams or photos. I'll let that be a Warn-ing.

[Hobcobble]

" So if somebody would let me know where to post the questions"

They belong here.
Drum brakes aren't that bad. You might want to
at least consider finding a D44 Large Knuckle from
a Sweptline donor and adding a power brake booster.
You'd be looking at direct bolt in parts. If the Large
Knuckle D44 axles worked for Fire Dept. brush buggies
and for the U.S. Military requirements, I'd think you'd
be all set. If you're more concerned
about long term availability of drums/parts for the D44 Sweptline
axle, look for a D44 from a '73-'76 W200. I believe the
spring perch locations line up just right. Just a thought....
I'm sure others can chime in on other years of Dodge W200
axles that would fit your needs.
John