Noob Membery

[PwrWgnDrvr]

Over the last 15 yrs on these forums, there have been a few folks that have expressed the same concern about the "dangerous in the cab fuel tank". Each time, it has been discussed ad nauseum that that is an erroneous assumption. It seems to me that mounting the tank on the side of the frame, TOTALLY EXPOSED to side impact crashes, puncture by rocks, trees, bollards, etc is an infinitely greater hazard. Especially in your case, where it will be less than an inch inside the supposed safe limit line.
Your truck functioned all those many yrs without any issues, so it seems you are overreacting to what you want to do in the future. Reading about your plans it doesn't seem like any big deal. Back in 1981 I loaded 5000# of beeswax on my 70 W200 and hauled it from WC to Chico. While it was WAY OVERLOADED and I wouldn't do it again, nothing broke and I have that truck to this day.

[Wildergarten]

Drum brakes aren't that bad.

Story to tell there. We live in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California. It's steep here. I was pulling a roller (about 10,000#) in second, going downhill, faster, and faster... there was a major and (thankfully) controlled intersection at the bottom of the hill. They have a stop sign, but one never knows when stupid people try things, and I was going faster than they'd rationally expect. At least I had the right of way. Faster, faster, starting to fish-tail... I HAD to hit the gas or I was going to die. I doing at least 60 in a 35 zone by the time I got to the bottom, screaming my head off in terror. Once I slowed down on the flat, I stopped and let the brakes cool. Went down the rest of the hill in low-range with the hubs unlocked.

Never again. So, for one hard stop on level ground, sure, drums are OK. Not for a load of two tons of rock. I want brakes with heat capacity and the ability to blow that heat to the atmosphere. I want discs.

You might want to at least consider finding a D44 Large Knuckle from a Sweptline donor and adding a power brake booster.

Thought about that. Uglytruckling doesn't have a disc kit for that axle.

You'd be looking at direct bolt in parts. If the Large
Knuckle D44 axles worked for Fire Dept. brush buggies
and for the U.S. Military requirements, I'd think you'd
be all set.

What the soldiers get is all about how the qualification round is designed.

If you're more concerned about long term availability of drums/parts for the D44 Sweptline
axle, look for a D44 from a '73-'76 W200. I believe the
spring perch locations line up just right.

That is a legit consideration, about which I wanted to learn more.

Just a thought....
John

And thanks for that. Much appreciated.

[Wildergarten]

Each time, it has been discussed ad nauseum that that is an erroneous assumption. It seems to me that mounting the tank on the side of the frame, TOTALLY EXPOSED to side impact crashes, puncture by rocks, trees, bollards, etc is an infinitely greater hazard. Especially in your case, where it will be less than an inch inside the supposed safe limit line.

Seen the 3/16 plate protective shield I have laid out in CAD??? BTW, no rocks or logs on our half-mile of dirt roads. Rollover hazards aplenty though, and it's a long way down. This truck gets shoulder harnesses too.

I go around lots of tight corners in these mountains. New gas cap or old, they all leaked. This truck, the old truck, same story. I ended up keeping the fuel level at 5-10 gallons with a 55 gallon drum at home just to deal with it. I'm so tired of leaks I couldn't tell you. Dodge should have shot the engineer who designed their filler systems, even that beautiful Charger they made with that big race-style cap leaked. I had a slew of 60's vintage Dodge Dart wagons. They ALL leaked gas down the side of the car, even with all new parts. So, what I used to do when building those cars was snake a filler tube and a vent line up to the back corner of the car above the tail light. Plated it too. Never a problem again.

Not a chance I'll leave the tank there with new paint.

[PwrWgnDrvr]

Did the roller trailer have adequate brakes? The towing vehicle is NEVER supposed to provide any of the stopping force needed for a trailer. That's what creates a jack knife situation.
I know your area. Been up/down Bear Creek Rd as well as Hwy 9. Hauled 3 trucks home from a place somewhere near Ben Lomond, a W500, a D400 and an 84 dorf tow truck, all heavy as hell. Downhill in a diesel w/o a jake brake was a PITA! Was able to do it w/o overheating the brakes on 9, but no way in hell would I ever go down Bear Creek again w/o engine braking. It roasted the disks on a 96 3500 diesel that wasn't even loaded!
Been driving swepts daily since Apr 1978 - 40 yrs. When gas caps wore out, they leaked. Bought a new one and no more leak for many yrs. Something else is wrong with your truck if you can't stop the leaks. Never been a problem for me on any mopar truck or car from 60/70s.

[Wildergarten]

Did the roller trailer have adequate brakes? The towing vehicle is NEVER supposed to provide any of the stopping force needed for a trailer. That's what creates a jack knife situation.
I know your area.

And I know yours. I commuted daily in that old Dart from Jack London Square where I lived on a boat out to Diablo Valley College. Highway 24 to Taylor Bl. Can't tell you how many Porches I left shrinking in my rear view mirror. That car was a monster. 318, a tricked out Holley I'd drilled for vacuum secondaries, discs on the front, 8-3/4 dropout on the back. Big sways on both ends. It was killer.

Been driving swepts daily since Apr 1978 - 40 yrs. When gas caps wore out, they leaked. Bought a new one and no more leak for many yrs. Something else is wrong with your truck if you can't stop the leaks. Never been a problem for me on any mopar truck or car from 60/70s.

Two trucks in a row with leaks. Can't tell you how many caps I've replaced, conventional, locking, didn't matter. Fire that guy.

[soopernaut]

If you're more concerned about long term availability of drums/parts for the D44 Sweptline
axle, look for a D44 from a '73-'76 W200. I believe the
spring perch locations line up just right. Just a thought....
I'm sure others can chime in on other years of Dodge W200
axles that would fit your needs.
John

Why those years? 73 and 74 had drum brakes and lockouts. 75 and 76 had discs but were full time 4wd. The 75-79 Dana 44s also had a weird bearing design that was prone to failure, especially if used hard. I've heard of people swapping from the spindles out with GM parts.

[Jim100]

I'm in the process of rebuilding a dodge dana 44 from a 1980 dodge truck. Disc brakes and manual locking hubs. Ball joints. Seems like a good axle but it is no dana 60.

[BigJimG]

I think it's interesting that you cite fuel tank regulations and concern over insurability, but are willing to randomly update axle strength to increase front GAWR. Swapping axles/drive trains WILL NOT increase allowable load limits over factory limitations. (MAX F/R GAWR, GVW, Tow capacity ect.) No one would probably ever know about a fuel tank hanging out under a flat bed, but if you get into an accident (or pass through a weigh station) towing/hauling more than listed capacity on your vehicle you WILL be ticketed at a minimum, regardless of how 'modernized' your truck is. Even a body swap on a later frame is questionable since the data plates are kept with the body.

Yes, a 500+ horse big block or 6BT, F/R Dana 60's with large brakes and increased spring capacity will haul and stop that load, but the regulations don't care other than what is listed on your data plate.

[Wildergarten]

I think it's interesting that you cite fuel tank regulations and concern over insurability, but are willing to randomly update axle strength to increase front GAWR. Yes, a 500+ horse big block or 6BT, F/R Dana 60's with large brakes and increased spring capacity will haul and stop that load, but the regulations don't care other than what is listed on your data plate.

Randomly? Please. I'm doing it for engineering reasons. I regard the regs on the tank as reasonable, so I'm doing it. The risks associated with a better front axle are non-existent and I doubt mightily an insurer would have a problem with it.

No one would probably ever know about a fuel tank hanging out under a flat bed,

They would if I hit a center divide or guard rail. Not likely, but SR-17 can be an unpredictable place.

...but if you get into an accident (or pass through a weigh station) towing/hauling more than listed capacity on your vehicle you WILL be ticketed at a minimum, regardless of how 'modernized' your truck is. Even a body swap on a later frame is questionable since the data plates are kept with the body.

You do know that when a truck has a heavy load the force on the front axle is reduced? I've never been through a weigh station in my life. 90% of the driving I do is on my own property. Virtually all of it is local, even when I go to the quarry. I've taken WAY too many risks over the years with the old truck. So now I want one that is safer.

The point about this is that going over limit on the front axle is most likely when the truck is UN-laden, 80% of the time I'm using it. The roads up here are rotten. That means LOTS of imact on an axle that isn't rated for that kind of treatment. It was a marginal design in the first place. So I want a better axle. If I can get one that accommodates the tank and has better brakes, so much the better.

I have weeding to do.

[Wildergarten]

As I'd mentioned above, my "new" truck has different rims and tires than the old one for which I'd measure for the Isuzu fuel tank. I just measured the offset of my "new" truck's tires with regard to the tank. With these tires, I have 1/4" to spare. If I ever get bigger tires (which is likely when these wear out), I'd have even more legal clearance. Hence, I'd then be fine with a Ram-350 axle. The bigger brakes of the Chevy are desirable, but probably not worth the trouble of making the interchange.

Given that some model years are full-time 4WD and others not, some are Dana 61 axles (no thank you), and that Dodge eventually went to coil springs, I'd like to know the optimal model years and specifications for a direct interchange by year and model. If anyone has that information, it would help me greatly.

Thanks,

Mark

[Jim100]

If I recall from reading its 1975 to 1993 dodge dana 60. Kingpin and disc brake and manual locking hubs possible. Try the search on this site because I'm sure others have installed a disc dana 60?

[Hobcobble]

Why those years? 73 and 74 had drum brakes and lockouts. 75 and 76 had discs but were full time 4wd. The 75-79 Dana 44s also had a weird bearing design that was prone to failure, especially if used hard. I've heard of people swapping from the spindles out with GM parts.

I wasn't aware that every 75 & '76 W200 axle was full time. Personally, I think that
the drum brakes are worth consideration and do a decent job in a power brake system, but
perhaps not for Windergarten's situation from the sounds of his terrain.

John

[dodgeboykim]

Why those years? 73 and 74 had drum brakes and lockouts. 75 and 76 had discs but were full time 4wd. The 75-79 Dana 44s also had a weird bearing design that was prone to failure, especially if used hard. I've heard of people swapping from the spindles out with GM parts.

I wasn't aware that every 75 & '76 W200 axle was full time. Personally, I think that
the drum brakes are worth consideration and do a decent job in a power brake system, but
perhaps not for Windergarten's situation from the sounds of his terrain.

John

All Dodge W 100/200/300 series trucks were Full Time from 1975 to 1979. Some of the W200 and all W300 series had the Dana 60 front end and could have locking hubs easily bolted on instead of the bolt on plate.

[Hobcobble]

All Dodge W 100/200/300 series trucks were Full Time from 1975 to 1979. Some of the W200 and all W300 series had the Dana 60 front end and could have locking hubs easily bolted on instead of the bolt on plate.

Good information to have. Thanks.

John

[Wildergarten]

All Dodge W 100/200/300 series trucks were Full Time from 1975 to 1979. Some of the W200 and all W300 series had the Dana 60 front end and could have locking hubs easily bolted on instead of the bolt on plate.

I'm guessing I wouldn't want one from those years anyway. Wouldn't one reasonably expect spider gears, splines, and such to have gone through hell in a 4X4 truck on pavement?

[dodgeboykim]

All Dodge W 100/200/300 series trucks were Full Time from 1975 to 1979. Some of the W200 and all W300 series had the Dana 60 front end and could have locking hubs easily bolted on instead of the bolt on plate.

I'm guessing I wouldn't want one from those years anyway. Wouldn't one reasonably expect spider gears, splines, and such to have gone through hell in a 4X4 truck on pavement?

Rears axles are used on pavement also. I have had my fair share of Full Time trucks and axle gear wear is not an issue if maintained. Bearings in the Dana 44 will last if provision for grease nipple is there and monster tires are not run. The Dana 60 axle is pretty much the same as the 89 to 93 Dana 60 fronts other than internal or external locking hubs.

[Wildergarten]

Rears axles are used on pavement also.

IOW, as long as the transfer case has the front axle out of gear it's OK. I get that, but to me, that's not "full time 4WD" but 'full-time locked hubs.' I didn't understand what was meant by the term "full time 4WD" applied that way. To me, "full time 4WD" means there is engine torque to all four wheels because gears lock the front to back drive trains through the transfer case.

I have had my fair share of Full Time trucks and axle gear wear is not an issue if maintained. Bearings in the Dana 44 will last if provision for grease nipple is there and monster tires are not run.

"Grease nipple?" Whuzzat??? To my knowledge, to grease the hubs requres disassembly, cleaning, and packing, one reason I used synthetic grease (Neo) for many years.

[dodgeboykim]

Full time hubs had a grease nipple accessed by removing the front wheels and lining up a hole in between the wheel studs so a grease gun could be put onto the grease nipple. No need to disassemble.

[earlymopar]

To the leaking gas tank issue, I had a similar issue and while I knew the gas cap was original, I didn't like that the gas could flow to the cap and that the cap was the primary seal for the tank. I went to a wrecking yard and found the most durable filler neck anti-splash-back flapper and then sectioned my stock filler neck and added the flapper. I did have to turn the O.D. on the flapper assembly a little to get it to fit my filler neck. No more spilling gas issues when turning.

- EM

[soopernaut]

Rears axles are used on pavement also.

IOW, as long as the transfer case has the front axle out of gear it's OK. I get that, but to me, that's not "full time 4WD" but 'full-time locked hubs.' I didn't understand what was meant by the term "full time 4WD" applied that way. To me, "full time 4WD" means there is engine torque to all four wheels because gears lock the front to back drive trains through the transfer case.

75-79 Dodge full time 4wd is always engaged to the front and rear axle. There is no 2wd position on the NP203 transfer case. There was a kit to convert it to part time 4wd. Dodgeboykim is saying, why would you use a rear axle that has xxx,xxx miles of use on it but not a front axle that has the same amount of use on it?