NP201 v. NP205

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Wildergarten
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NP201 v. NP205

Post by Wildergarten »

I have both gearboxes currently out of trucks, so I have choices. Studying the situation, I've learned of some of the differences. The 201 has the 8-bolt PTO interface, which can support some rather substantial gearboxes while the 205 is the smaller 6-bolt interface. The 201 has larger rubber mount pads and fasteners. Both gearboxes have a boss to support a strut to reduce fore and aft swinging, but it's small compared to some of the brackets I see among the rock-crawler fans. Terry told me he broke one.

The 201 is a twin-stick design, with an interlock to prevent engagement in 2-wheel low. The FM says that this is to protect the internals and driveline components from the 2X torque low range can deliver, yet there is a caveat when this consideration is subjected to the "smell test." Obviously, the input shaft torque to the t-case can be no more than what the conisderably smaller input shaft to the transmission can deliver. Moreover, the torque going into the t-case is the same in 2-wheel low as it is in 4-wheel low. So none of that is different. The only difference in terms of protecting the driveline is on the output side of the t-case going to the rear axle which is after the output gear that doubles the torque.

This is where the real issue lies.

The biggest difference between the two boxes is the splines on the gozintas and gozoutas. The 1-3/8 10-spline shaft on the 201 is considerably weaker than the 32 spline 205. 1410 series yokes are available for both. Learning that, I stuck with the big factory yoke on only the rear (10-spline) Dana 60 so that the U-joint would fail there before anything else in the driveline system did. Effectively, it's a shear pin.

Having done a considerable amount of sleuthing among IH fans, I've learned that there is a much more significant difference between the two boxes.
The 201 had no problems with lubrication. What they did have is a primary output gear that was a two piece unit with cushioning springs between the interface of the inner and outer part of the gear. That was a mistake, but NP continued to produce and sell that T-case to both IHC and Dodge for about 10 years.

The gear chews up the springs and the engaging teeth between the parts of the gear slap back and fourth during stops, starts, and cruise above 40 mph. Even if no repairs are made the gear takes the punishment for hundreds of thousands of miles.

BTW, that gear repaired starts slapping back and fourth in about two months. Only way to correctly repair is to weld the inner to outer part. Some care with preheat and post heat makes for an absolutely bullet proof repair. I put 200,000 miles on my welded gear with not a problem.
In the interest of reducing instantaneous loads on the driveline, engineers at New Process developed a two-piece gear for the 201 with springs installed on lugs between the gear and the 10-spline shaft. One of these IH posters, who drives a heavily-loaded Travelall, rebuilt a couple of these boxes after which the springs were subject to early failure. Mr. Bruce Frank posted photos of the respective gears here: (https://www.steelsoldiers.com/threads/m ... 031/page-2 (yes, I know the thread is about an M37)). He went so far as to weld the gear to the shaft, after which he subjected it to 200,000 miles with no problems.

In the NP205, New Process eliminated this two-piece gear design on 32-spline shafts, a design they stuck with for 20 years thereafter. On the other hand, the NP205 has an internal interlock to prevent going into 2-wheel low. What I used to do in the '69 W200 in order to travel on asphalt along our property at very low speeds with (volumetrically) huge poorly secured loads of tree tops and brush was put it in 4-wheel low and unlock the front hubs. I did blow out the factory 1301 series rear u-joint doing that, but it was old and pretty roasted. I do this often enough that it's a PITA. In building a new truck I don't want PITAs.

Now, here comes the kicker: My NP201 has this beefy Braden PTO on it with 1.25" shafts both fore and aft. I need that to run the winch on the front and the hydraulic pump for the dump bed. Being an NP201, it's an 8-bolt PTO I can't put on the 6-bolt 205 PTO interface. So in order to use my NP205 with its indestructible internals as intended, I'd need 1410 yokes, a twin stick setup (they're available), and a PTO with dual output shafts (1" minimum). That's at least a grand of cash. I've already bought 1410 series U-bolt yokes for the NP201, a sunk cost of $300 and a gasket set for painting.

So this whole question revolves around that two-piece output gear. What is your experience with the NP201? Terry says he's never seen the two-piece gear. I've looked around various fora online and have seen discussion about the problem as described. If I go into my NP201 to replace gaskets, I'll probably take a look. There may be an option to welding it, assuming they're coils, I could simply install steel shaft stock, but that would put those high instantaneousl loads into that weaker 10-spline shaft.

If time and money were not objective considerations, the obvious thing to do would be to go with the NP205 and blow the dough on the new PTO, linkage, yokes, and toss in a different rear axle so that the entire rear driveline would be 32-spline shafts. Barring that (at least) three grand, and having already rebuilt what I have, I'm not thrilled with that option unless I was going to a DRW axle, rear disc brakes, springs, etc. OK, so call it five grand and at least a month's work and delay.

Sigh.
'69 W200 (thumbnail)
'68 W200 (RIP)
'68 W200 383 NP435 3.53
'67 W200 383 NP435 4.10 w overload springs, Dana 60, PTO winch & flatbed dump, racks, crane, c-air (Max)
Mark Vande Pol
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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by Wildergarten »

And if that wasn't enough, I've read that one can swap the internals from an NP205 into an NP201, at which point all I'd need would be the 32-spline 1410 yokes. I'm betting the only people who did that swap never dealt with a PTO.

Engineers, yeah, we're like that.
'69 W200 (thumbnail)
'68 W200 (RIP)
'68 W200 383 NP435 3.53
'67 W200 383 NP435 4.10 w overload springs, Dana 60, PTO winch & flatbed dump, racks, crane, c-air (Max)
Mark Vande Pol
Wildergarten.org

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by Wildergarten »

I just checked with a rep for Parker-Chelsea and a dual-output 1.25" cable controlled PTO for the NP205 is $850.
Part number is 352XSVLX-W6XD

Ouch.
'69 W200 (thumbnail)
'68 W200 (RIP)
'68 W200 383 NP435 3.53
'67 W200 383 NP435 4.10 w overload springs, Dana 60, PTO winch & flatbed dump, racks, crane, c-air (Max)
Mark Vande Pol
Wildergarten.org

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by Hobcobble »

I'm pretty certain the NP 201 PTO is a 10 bolt Braden FTD-7 unit. :study :Thumbsup

John

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by Wildergarten »

Hobcobble wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:14 am
I'm pretty certain the NP 201 PTO is a 10 bolt Braden FTD-7 unit. :study :Thumbsup
You are correct and I am corrected! When I first photographed it, I couldn't make out the numbers on the plate. For the bolt count, I had gone off online data rather than going back and counting them myself. Trying to go too fast. Really pressed right now. Got the gasket set for it last night!

M
'69 W200 (thumbnail)
'68 W200 (RIP)
'68 W200 383 NP435 3.53
'67 W200 383 NP435 4.10 w overload springs, Dana 60, PTO winch & flatbed dump, racks, crane, c-air (Max)
Mark Vande Pol
Wildergarten.org

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by BigJimG »

The biggest problem I could see with swapping the internals of the 205 into the 201 is that the PTO unit from the 201 probably will not mesh with the gears of the 205, so then you would have to possibly modify the PTO unit if possible. The better alternative would seem to be the usage of the NP200 output gear that is mentioned in the same M37 thread. As this would save you the welding/modifying of the stock parts.
'63 D100
Build Link: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=40000

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by Wildergarten »

BigJimG wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:05 pm
The biggest problem I could see with swapping the internals of the 205 into the 201 is that the PTO unit from the 201 probably will not mesh with the gears of the 205,
Correctamundo, but there is a remedy to that, albeit a pricey one. Note that further down the thread:
I just checked with a rep for Parker-Chelsea and a dual-output 1.25" cable controlled PTO for the NP205 is $850. Part number is 352XSVLX-W6XD
As to the gear, telephone discussions with Terry re his experiences with 201s suggest that New Process may have revised the 201 design to eliminate the two-piece output gear assembly with a one-piece pressed assembly well before they came out with the 205. My 201 is a 1968 vintage, the last year the it was manufactured. So what I'll do is take a look at the gear when I pull the housings off to change the gaskets so that they stop weeping oil, paint the pieces, pop in new seals, bolt it up with Hylomar, and install the new 1410 yokes. All the twin stick linkage needs is for me to turn a jig with which to drill and tap the base bracket along with a couple of nylon spacers and an end cap. At that point, I'll have a very clean and desirable twin-stick 201 setup either to install or sell. The NP435 gets the same treatment simultaneously. At that time, I just may crank up my winky black phosphate plating line for the bolts and do as much of the total bolt inventory as possible. I'm debating whether to do the same with the 205, as I might already have the seals and a gasket set is only $25 delivered. A 205 that clean yields up to a grand.

In the mean time, research how frequent are 10-spline failures, to make the final choice. I'd bet they're not common at all, but I'd also bet there aren't a bunch of guys running 201s in 2-wheel low. Selling the 201, cleaned, painted, and sealed with its twin stick linkage would probably yield most of what I'd need to upgrade the 205 with the PTO, new yokes, and a twin stick setup. If I ever replace the rear axle with a DRW (I have the DRW front hubs to go on the Dana 60), then I'll revisit the driveline to be 32-spline throughout using the 205, which is what I'd have done if I was made of money in the first place if I knew then what I know now.

If the 201 output gear is two-piece with springs, I'll probably bite the bullet on the 205 and sell the 201.
'69 W200 (thumbnail)
'68 W200 (RIP)
'68 W200 383 NP435 3.53
'67 W200 383 NP435 4.10 w overload springs, Dana 60, PTO winch & flatbed dump, racks, crane, c-air (Max)
Mark Vande Pol
Wildergarten.org

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by marklein »

I welded mine, haven't driven it though, not sure when I'll get to.
20171206_075757-1008x567.jpg

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by Wildergarten »

marklein wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:29 pm
I welded mine, haven't driven it though, not sure when I'll get to.
In what year was it made? What type of weld? TIG? MIG? Special rod? Did you stress relieve the weld? Did you do anything special to assure that the gear remained plane perpendicular with no additional runout? Pin it first?
'69 W200 (thumbnail)
'68 W200 (RIP)
'68 W200 383 NP435 3.53
'67 W200 383 NP435 4.10 w overload springs, Dana 60, PTO winch & flatbed dump, racks, crane, c-air (Max)
Mark Vande Pol
Wildergarten.org

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by marklein »

Checked it in my lathe, runout wasn't an issue. From my 67, checked with a welder friend of mine, he said tack it in 4 places to make sure you don't create runout. I used a mig, the way it is designed I couldn't see a way to get it apart, I welded it together. It can't come apart, although welds could crack. I'm not concerned about it.

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by Wildergarten »

marklein wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:27 am
I used a mig.
Any preheat? Did you need to Bevel it or is it a fillet? Both sides? Did you remove the springs first? Did you weld the entire interface or just lay down some beads? Looks like you ground it. If so, how did you keep abrasives from sneaking into cracks? Masking?
'69 W200 (thumbnail)
'68 W200 (RIP)
'68 W200 383 NP435 3.53
'67 W200 383 NP435 4.10 w overload springs, Dana 60, PTO winch & flatbed dump, racks, crane, c-air (Max)
Mark Vande Pol
Wildergarten.org

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by marklein »

It has openings that can be welded. I ground it down just to smooth it off. Once welded there are no areas that can hold contaminants. Here's what it looks like.
20200106_204337-1008x756.jpg
20200106_204326-1008x756.jpg

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by Wildergarten »

marklein wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:49 pm
Here's what it looks like.
I'm assuming you did both sides. Did, or will you, press on a new bearing after that?
'69 W200 (thumbnail)
'68 W200 (RIP)
'68 W200 383 NP435 3.53
'67 W200 383 NP435 4.10 w overload springs, Dana 60, PTO winch & flatbed dump, racks, crane, c-air (Max)
Mark Vande Pol
Wildergarten.org

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by marklein »

I did weld both sides, smoothed them out. New bearing, I had bought a complete oh kit. I had built lots of 203's,205's and other units, but this was my first 201. Very similar to a 205.

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by Wildergarten »

marklein wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:21 pm
I had built lots of 203's,205's and other units, but this was my first 201.
I've built a couple of transmissions (one (from a TR-3) brought to me loose in buckets) including an A-833, but all I've ever done to a transfer case is seals and gaskets on a 205. This one is a tad trepidating. If you don't mind, I'll be grateful if you'd entertain my pestering you with questions if necessary when the time comes.
'69 W200 (thumbnail)
'68 W200 (RIP)
'68 W200 383 NP435 3.53
'67 W200 383 NP435 4.10 w overload springs, Dana 60, PTO winch & flatbed dump, racks, crane, c-air (Max)
Mark Vande Pol
Wildergarten.org

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by Hobcobble »

Wildergarten wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:22 pm
I've built a couple of transmissions (one (from a TR-3)
TR3, as in Triumph TR3? :thinking

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by Wildergarten »

Hobcobble wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:34 pm
TR3, as in Triumph TR3? :thinking

Yup, every little spring, ball, and slider plate was loose.
I had to figure it out from an exploded drawing.
\
'69 W200 (thumbnail)
'68 W200 (RIP)
'68 W200 383 NP435 3.53
'67 W200 383 NP435 4.10 w overload springs, Dana 60, PTO winch & flatbed dump, racks, crane, c-air (Max)
Mark Vande Pol
Wildergarten.org

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by Hobcobble »

1956 TR3 With Cockpit Cover Doc1.jpg
1956 TR3 With Cockpit Cover Doc1.jpg (34.17 KiB) Viewed 9499 times
I drive this one every Spring & Summer :Thumbsup

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by marklein »

I have been in the transmission industry since 1987. Have built autos, standards, tcases, diffs, engines for my own stuff. I will help where I can. Don't look at it as pestering. The fsm has good pics, is is of some help. It isn't a particularly complicated unit, just has lots of pieces. Attention to small detail is the key. Make sure the areas where the pilot bearings run are ok, I recommend that people who own 4wd pickups put the tcase in 4low at least once a month. Keeps the small pilot type bearings in all forms of transfer cases from brinelling the shaft because it never changes position. Build away. Like I said, it is very similar to a 205,, but uses more tapered rollers than the 205. Be glad it isn't a 203, that was probably the worst tcase to build ever. If you don't have a good carbide tipped scribe, get one, use it to mark pieces as you remove them. Mark the forks for front and which side they come from, and anything else you wish to mark. Trust me you'll be glad you did.

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Re: NP201 v. NP205

Post by Wildergarten »

marklein wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:46 pm
I have been in the transmission industry since 1987. Have built autos, standards, tcases, diffs, engines for my own stuff. I will help where I can. Don't look at it as pestering. The fsm has good pics, is is of some help. It isn't a particularly complicated unit, just has lots of pieces. Attention to small detail is the key. Make sure the areas where the pilot bearings run are ok, I recommend that people who own 4wd pickups put the tcase in 4low at least once a month. Keeps the small pilot type bearings in all forms of transfer cases from brinelling the shaft because it never changes position. Build away. Like I said, it is very similar to a 205,, but uses more tapered rollers than the 205. Be glad it isn't a 203, that was probably the worst tcase to build ever. If you don't have a good carbide tipped scribe, get one, use it to mark pieces as you remove them. Mark the forks for front and which side they come from, and anything else you wish to mark. Trust me you'll be glad you did.
Many thanks. I'm going to PM you my contact info in the hope that you'll be "fool enough" to drop me yours so that I can be sure my understandings are correct. I don't have a lot of time, which means that it has to be right on the first shot. If I've got something wrong, I'd rather tear into it again before running it that way. Thanks again,

Mark
'69 W200 (thumbnail)
'68 W200 (RIP)
'68 W200 383 NP435 3.53
'67 W200 383 NP435 4.10 w overload springs, Dana 60, PTO winch & flatbed dump, racks, crane, c-air (Max)
Mark Vande Pol
Wildergarten.org

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